Sorry to be dense.. What is a Cross??
Culling Eggs - Your Thoughts and Opinions
- Thread starter pssh
- Start date
Sorry to be dense.. What is a Cross??
froggielog
Established Member
A "cross" is when say a male ambanaja mates with a female ambiliobe, producing very interesting babies! 
If I had the room Olimpia I would gladly take one, but my parents would kill me.
If I had the room Olimpia I would gladly take one, but my parents would kill me.
Texas Panther Man
New Member
Not to get off topic but, a cross is a cham that is the offspring of two different locale parents. Ie male ambanja x female ambilobe.
Ive never really considered culling. I put too much time and effort into getting quality viable eggs to cull any. I guess I dont have an issue with it if its done quickly after laying.
As for cutting a baby out of the egg. I dont do that unless its a last resort. Ive had eggs that didnt hatch until almost a month after the rest of the clutchmates. They still hatched normally and grew just like all the others. The only reason I'd cut an egg is if I saw the egg begin to collapse and cave in and the neonate couldnt get out on his/her own without help.
Ive never really considered culling. I put too much time and effort into getting quality viable eggs to cull any. I guess I dont have an issue with it if its done quickly after laying.
As for cutting a baby out of the egg. I dont do that unless its a last resort. Ive had eggs that didnt hatch until almost a month after the rest of the clutchmates. They still hatched normally and grew just like all the others. The only reason I'd cut an egg is if I saw the egg begin to collapse and cave in and the neonate couldnt get out on his/her own without help.
pssh
Avid Member
Do those babies end up growing and thriving as well as the others? I wonder how they (if they become breeders) would affect the gene pool?
On a side note, if anyone ever has any eggs they dont want, I will take them. Fertile or infertile. I have some egg eating snakes that would appreciate them.
On a side note, if anyone ever has any eggs they dont want, I will take them. Fertile or infertile. I have some egg eating snakes that would appreciate them.
Texas Panther Man
New Member
Do those babies end up growing and thriving as well as the others? I wonder how they (if they become breeders) would affect the gene pool?
On a side note, if anyone ever has any eggs they dont want, I will take them. Fertile or infertile. I have some egg eating snakes that would appreciate them.
I will find out this yr if they have any difficulties breeding. I know I kept at least 1 of the females that were slow hatchers. She was behind all the others so she was easy to keep track of her growth. She is about 7 wks younger than the rest of her clutch mates and so far shes grown at what I would consider the same rate as the others. She is barely a yr old and she will be bred in the coming months. I've got another female from the same clutch that will be bred first since she is older then I will see how the younger girl does. I know this is only 1 example and a much larger sampling would have to be explored to truly get any real varifiable results. I was just saying I dont think just because they dont hatch at the same time as their clutch mates that hatching late is a determining factor in a chams long term health.
pssh
Avid Member
Right, but if you have to cut them out of the egg, they may not have been strong enough to make it out on their own. If that was the case, then they wouldn't have made it in the wild. I'm just wondering how using babies that weren't strong enough on their own to breed later on affects their offspring and future generations. Since chameleons (except veileds) seem to get weaker and fail to thrive as the generations go on, I'm wondering if our use of breeding animals that would not normally have been strong enough to survive in the wild has anything to do with it.
Texas Panther Man
New Member
So far I havent cut any out that were still alive. I try to wait and let them hatch naturally if at all possible. So I actually lost a few this yr waiting to see if they would hatch on their own. Im really reluctant to cut a baby out myself. I think they should be strong enough to hatch themselves. If not your gonna have a baby that probably wont survive the three month mark imo. And like you said if they do make it to adulthood would you really want a weak cham as a possible breeder? Thats something everyone has to come to terms with individually.
KarmaChameleon1337
Avid Member
I wouldn't see the problem. They're not alive yet. Then again I guess this topic is as delicate as human abortion. A lot of opinions. I might even consider pimping Bo out if anyone was close, since I have no female of my own. If there was an extremely large unexpected clutch I could see it. Or if someone just wanted a couple. They wouldn't feel it, granted the female worked but she's not going tp care for them.
Solid Snake
Avid Member
I would never cull an egg.
Reason being is this:
It makes no since to me to do so.
Im not trying to get off topic, but to further explain my stance...
It would make more sense to cull live animals. If for some reason I only wanted to work with a certain number of animals, I would wait until after they had hatched.
Not that I would, it would just be more logical.
I see no reason to cull an egg really.
I agree that it would be starving the gene pool of that species to some extent. Each egg has a different make-up and set of traits inside of it.
As for "accidents" such as receiving a pregnant animal unknowingly, I would treat it as I would any other situation.
Id play the odds.
If I can take care of the young, then I would.
If I couldnt, I would find someone who could.
If that is an impossibility, I would cull the eggs.
I have no "moral" feelings about culling a captive animals eggs, however I feel a moral responsibility to take care of any animal that I hold captive, including its offspring to the best of my ability.
Reason being is this:
It makes no since to me to do so.
Im not trying to get off topic, but to further explain my stance...
It would make more sense to cull live animals. If for some reason I only wanted to work with a certain number of animals, I would wait until after they had hatched.
Not that I would, it would just be more logical.
I see no reason to cull an egg really.
I agree that it would be starving the gene pool of that species to some extent. Each egg has a different make-up and set of traits inside of it.
As for "accidents" such as receiving a pregnant animal unknowingly, I would treat it as I would any other situation.
Id play the odds.
If I can take care of the young, then I would.
If I couldnt, I would find someone who could.
If that is an impossibility, I would cull the eggs.
I have no "moral" feelings about culling a captive animals eggs, however I feel a moral responsibility to take care of any animal that I hold captive, including its offspring to the best of my ability.
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
See, I couldn't cull hatchlings unless they were really disfigured or otherwise handicapped beyond repair. I have a hard enough time as it is thumping rodents for people at work, I hate it. The poor things are already here, conscious and aware. At least by culling the egg they're none the wiser.
Of course if you wanted to end up with only males or something like that for a project then, yes, culling the hatchlings you didn't want would make more sense. But I couldn't do it.
Of course if you wanted to end up with only males or something like that for a project then, yes, culling the hatchlings you didn't want would make more sense. But I couldn't do it.
Interesting topic.
I plan on culling eggs. I am only just about to breed my panthers for the first time. My space is limited where we currently are so I can't be inundated with too many more chameleons if I can't sell the babies. I plan on keeping a few, but will have to sell the rest. They have good genetics so hopefully I will be able to, but my physical limitations right now make high ambitions difficult. If the clutch is larger than 15 I will cull the rest this time. I would do this right after they are laid, at which point there is no embryo in development yet. So it's not actually affecting any life to cull the egg immediately. Hopefully in the future I will not have to cull any, but it is what it is right now.
I feel it is more responsible to decrease the clutch size to something I can reasonably accommodate so that they get excellent husbandry from day one instead of over burdening myself knowing my limitations and potentially having hatchlings suffer from less than perfect conditions. I know exactly what I am capable of and I'm not selecting for males or anything like that. It would be irresponsible of me to hatch all of them out and then expect someone else to do the work with neonates because I didn't take proper precautions.
Once the eggs are hatched I would only cull if there was a birth defect that would cause suffering or poor quality of life, and even that would be very difficult for me to do.
I plan on culling eggs. I am only just about to breed my panthers for the first time. My space is limited where we currently are so I can't be inundated with too many more chameleons if I can't sell the babies. I plan on keeping a few, but will have to sell the rest. They have good genetics so hopefully I will be able to, but my physical limitations right now make high ambitions difficult. If the clutch is larger than 15 I will cull the rest this time. I would do this right after they are laid, at which point there is no embryo in development yet. So it's not actually affecting any life to cull the egg immediately. Hopefully in the future I will not have to cull any, but it is what it is right now.
I feel it is more responsible to decrease the clutch size to something I can reasonably accommodate so that they get excellent husbandry from day one instead of over burdening myself knowing my limitations and potentially having hatchlings suffer from less than perfect conditions. I know exactly what I am capable of and I'm not selecting for males or anything like that. It would be irresponsible of me to hatch all of them out and then expect someone else to do the work with neonates because I didn't take proper precautions.
Once the eggs are hatched I would only cull if there was a birth defect that would cause suffering or poor quality of life, and even that would be very difficult for me to do.
pssh
Avid Member
I would have a harder time culling already living animals than I would an egg. The egg can't move its little googly eyes and look at me! If I could only care for a certain amount of animals financially, it would make more sense to me (for personal reasons) to cull the eggs rather than the hatchlings. I, personally, wouldn't breed purposefully if I couldn't take care of the babies but I also don't see an issue with it if others choose to do it.
Ferret, I know with all the supporters on the forums you will be able to sell all the babies you need. Plus, you can always lower prices if needed. I know there are a lot of members who may not be able to afford a $300 dollar baby but would gladly buy, care for well, and love a baby priced a bit lower. I respect your decision whatever you choose to do.
I was actually offered a free baby at one point (shipping included) if I would take care of a baby to the best of my abilities by a great member on here once. It was because she didn't care about the money and only about the welfare of the babies (I have even more respect for her than before because of it.) I didn't have the space for the adorable little girl at the time, so unfortunately I couldn't take her but I would have loved to.
Ferret, I know with all the supporters on the forums you will be able to sell all the babies you need. Plus, you can always lower prices if needed. I know there are a lot of members who may not be able to afford a $300 dollar baby but would gladly buy, care for well, and love a baby priced a bit lower. I respect your decision whatever you choose to do.
I was actually offered a free baby at one point (shipping included) if I would take care of a baby to the best of my abilities by a great member on here once. It was because she didn't care about the money and only about the welfare of the babies (I have even more respect for her than before because of it.) I didn't have the space for the adorable little girl at the time, so unfortunately I couldn't take her but I would have loved to.
spawn
Member
Or just give them away on craigslist. Really I think there's no good reason to kill the eggs. It's not like they're difficult to get rid of (unless you live in a remote area).
As far as opinions and people's dilemmas, you shouldn't worry about that too much. Everytime you drive your car you kill hundreds of bugs and pollute the environment. Why is that any different? Are bugs any less significant than chameleons? Is it ludicrous to attempt to value one over the other? You do what you gotta' do.
As far as opinions and people's dilemmas, you shouldn't worry about that too much. Everytime you drive your car you kill hundreds of bugs and pollute the environment. Why is that any different? Are bugs any less significant than chameleons? Is it ludicrous to attempt to value one over the other? You do what you gotta' do.
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