inbreeding

how bad is it to inbreed. lets say if i were to breed a Mitsio brother and sister, how bad would it be.

Probably not very good.
I don't see why that risk should even be taken. Inbreeding anything can cause some serious problems that affect the poor animals life.


But hey, I don't actually know. I'm sure someone will tell you all about it though.

Dunno? Why not try it with your own Sis first and if that turns out bad you'll know not to do it

It is a terrible idea. Most of the eggs will probably be infertile, and the ones that do hatch will probably be still born.

Killer Chams said:

how bad is it to inbreed. lets say if i were to breed a Mitsio brother and sister, how bad would it be.

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Is there a background to this question? The only reason I can see to do it is if you have aforementioned brother and sister and don't want to spend money on an unrelated Mitsio, which is not a good start to any sort of chameleon breeding project. Or chameleon care full-stop, really.

It happened to me twice. Once with bro and sis (he snuck away from his free range and found her tree while I was cleaning cages). Babies were born blind, slit eyes, no eyeballs and the ones I thought were good still died within 6 weeks. Also happened with dad and daughter. Same issues.

damn dont have to but me on blast. i was just wondering, theres not a clear answer on the forum if you look up inbreeding so i thought i would ask. theres some threads on here say its cool, so i thought i would ask. bocajan has been there. https://www.chameleonforums.com/who-can-mate-who-16995/

This thread kind of gives me an icky feeling inside...

No really, don't do that. I can't say all hell will break lose, but I think i can say you will run the risk of weakening your genetics. When siblings mate, dormant recesisve genes that normally would not result in a phenotype (since they are recessive) have a greater risk of becoming activatated as the siblings are more likely to both share such recessive genes and thus have a greater likely hood of both passing said genes onto their offspring. You may not see horrible things in the F1 generation (although peoples comments here seem to suggest you do with charms) but over time you can see nasty stuff.develop. wonder why some breeds of dogs have weird health problems like greater chance of deafness or blindness? Inbreeding does that.

Killer Chams said:

damn dont have to but me on blast. i was just wondering, theres not a clear answer on the forum if you look up inbreeding so i thought i would ask. theres some threads on here say its cool, so i thought i would ask. bocajan has been there. https://www.chameleonforums.com/who-can-mate-who-16995/

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I think its a very worthwhile question. For instance let's say all of the parsons chameleons on earth spontaneously die off except a brother sister pair, what do you do?

Unless chameleons are different from every other animal on earth there is no genetic reason this should be an issue unless the line is carrying a lot of bad recessive genes.

I understand there is at least one experience above where it did not work out but I would guess this could be due to different reasons or just really bad luck.

Granted it is not considered good form, partly because of our own social taboos and partly because there really is a genetic reason to not do so. By inbreeding traits that would otherwise be recessive and are not beneficial will have a much higher likely-hood of appearing in the offspring if it exists in the line. In addition to this you are essentially decreasin the genetic diversity by not allowing mixes for other prominent and beneficial genes to mix in.

In reality if the parents of the brother and sister were unrelated and this is the first inbred generation there is a small chance real problems will occur.

Please understand I am speaking purely from theory and have no practical experience with inbreeding chameleons but have read on the subject for other animals, including humans: See royal bloodlines for an example.

AllFallDown said:

This thread kind of gives me an icky feeling inside...

No really, don't do that. I can't say all hell will break lose, but I think i can say you will run the risk of weakening your genetics. When siblings mate, dormant recesisve genes that normally would not result in a phenotype (since they are recessive) have a greater risk of becoming activatated as the siblings are more likely to both share such recessive genes and thus have a greater likely hood of both passing said genes onto their offspring. You may not see horrible things in the F1 generation (although peoples comments here seem to suggest you do with charms) but over time you can see nasty stuff.develop. wonder why some breeds of dogs have weird health problems like greater chance of deafness or blindness? Inbreeding does that.

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Ok so you type faster than me! ha haa looks like great minds think alike.

DanSB said:

Ok so you type faster than me! ha haa looks like great minds think alike.

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Lol, well, corroboration is always good

Would anyone see a possibility of smaller animals that may not grow at the same rates as a possibility of long term effects of inbreeding?

I can totally understand accidents happening but, that's accidents!

If you are considering breeding for offspring, why even take a chance on throwbacks and deformed or otherwise unhealthy babies?

If you are breeding just to be breeding, be safe and find unrelated mates for your siblings?

I just went through hell with a cham and his health issues may have been the result of inbreeding. He appeared healthy for the first 6 months of his life but things went downhill from there.

I would hate to see someone else or another cham go through the hell we went through just because someone thought it might work out and the babies looked okay in the beginning...

Sorry, just my opinion.

Dan made a really good point here about taboos related to inbreeding. While I think that the biology should take center stage here, because we are talking about pets or potential pets I think there is something to be said about honoring those taboos for the sake of the future caretaker. If nothing else, that person should have a right to know if their new pets are the result of inbreeding. I suspect most people would have a problem with an inbred animal (I would).

I'm not necessarily saying it should be advertised per se, but a caretaker should have a right to know the origins of their pet.

The comments about future owners are key here, I think. Unless you got those Mitsios from somewhere with scrupulous breeding records, you don't know if there is already inbreeding in their genetic history. Captive-bred animals come from a limited gene pool, to further limit it by inbreeding unnecessarily is short-sighted negligent, to say the least.

'Taboo' is an unhelpful term in this instance, it only really applies to human incest. Humans (usually) knowingly commit incest, animals have their choice taken away from them as far as incest goes, in a natural situation it rarely happens. Even in critically endangered species inbreeding is a very very last resort.

Inbreeding may not cause any immediate problems, but there is absolutely no good reason to do it, and it certainly isn't good for chameleons as individuals or as a species.

The study concluded that about 30 Indonesian women, and an unknown number of men, founded Madagascar's human population.

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http://news.mongabay.com/2012/0322-madagascar_colonization.html

That's right people, inbreeding has formed entire populations. Also note that Borneo and Madagascar are some of the most heavy-hit deforestation zones on the planet - maybe it's a genetic trait originating from Borneo to destroy their own habitats?

Many of our panther chameleon coloring IMO is a result of inbreeding. Any time you have one species on an island (any panther locale with the word Nosy in it) is going to have some inbreeding. You'll notice that Nosy Mitsio and Nosy Be are also very mono-colored compared to mainland locales - a result of inbreeding, and colors dominating the gene pool? It needs some research for sure.

Negative defects ARE enhanced by inbreeding, so only strong genetic individuals can do it. Many ruling families throughout history organized marriages between cousins to enhance their strong ruling traits. We know that didn't turn out too well for many lineages, but mammals are much different than reptiles.

There are a lot of 'I think' and 'Probably not' when it comes to this argument, but very few facts. Inbreeding is frowned upon in our species, and really only in the last few centuries, and reptiles/amphibians are totally different than us mammales. Another example is sparrows. Every common sparrow you have ever seen in North America came from 11 pairs let loose over in New York some 100 years ago....I think they've done pretty well.

The fear of harmful results from inbreeding animals is generally exaggerated, coming more from a few misunderstood problems in human genetics. Many reptile populations are tightly inbred already. These descend from just a few ancestors that either suddenly found themselves in a new location (such as many of the lizards introduced into South Florida), or were isolated as the terrain around them became uninhabitable (several forms of banded geckos in the Southwest and Central America).

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http://www.reptilechannel.com/lizards/breeding-lizards/inbreeding-reptiles.aspx

Never listen to people who are just making an opinion. Search around for facts, mix it with your opinion, and come to your own conclusion.

My opinion is that it's not beneficial unless you are breeding for a certain trait and have strong, pedigreed individuals (you know the family history a few generations, and know other people with siblings, and are confident there are no genetic issues with the line). Trait-breeding hasn't been well explored in chameleons, but as more people get into them I think we will see it happen.

Just think of how many crested geckos are around, and there were only a handful of originals that were used before exporting from New Caledonia was outlawed.

Though the export of wild Crested Geckos is now prohibited, biologists exported several specimens for breeding and study before the practice was outlawed.[2] From these specimens, different breeding lines were established both in Europe and the United States.[2] The Crested Gecko is now one of the most widely kept and bred species of gecko in the world.[2]

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If they have not been inbred previously in their more recent ancestry, there probably wouldnt be too much of an issue. That said, you should be prepared to cull any individuals that may end up unhealthy or otherwise have issues. While its not ideal, inbreeding reptiles happens fairly frequently especially to determine genetics and to produce color/pattern traits (not so much with chameleons.) like others have said, it is more likely that negative recessive genetics will show up as they (the siblings) are more likely to have the same genes. (Look at purebred dogs. Because of the limited gene pool for most breeds, they have been inbred and certain illnesses and health issues are more likely to appear depending on the breed because of it.)

I wouldn't do it though. Finding someone to trade a female mitsio with would be possible. It might not be easy, but there are others with females.


Edit: there are even a pair for sale in the classifieds right now.

BocaJan said:

It happened to me twice. Once with bro and sis (he snuck away from his free range and found her tree while I was cleaning cages). Babies were born blind, slit eyes, no eyeballs and the ones I thought were good still died within 6 weeks. Also happened with dad and daughter. Same issues.

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Exactly. Typical results are lots of eggs that do not hatch, and those that do will give you weak animals with a host of permanent issues, to include a very short life.

I have seen this with about a dozen different clutches, different locales. Every clutch a tragedy.

The above two posts, while perhaps meaning well, are grossly misinformed when it comes to chameleons. What they say may work with ball pythons, but is a guaranteed disaster with chameleons.

Chameleon Company said:

Exactly. Typical results are lots of eggs that do not hatch, and those that do will give you weak animals with a host of permanent issues, to include a very short life.

I have seen this with about a dozen different clutches, different locales. Every clutch a tragedy.

The above two posts, while perhaps meaning well, are grossly misinformed when it comes to chameleons. What they say may work with ball pythons, but is a guaranteed disaster with chameleons.

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A dozen clutches of tragedies!?!? What you doing INBREEDING so much to give such profound personal "bad" experiences. Seems irresponsible after the first experience, IMO.