Eye problems with my Fischer's...

Hey ya'll,

So I have a male Fischer's Cham that I bought back at the (September) 2008 Reptile Convention here in Sacramento from Reptile Depot. I'm not sure how old he was at the time I bought him, but he was quite small...I'm guessing a couple months old. Right now he's about 6 inches long...still pretty small which also baffles me...but anyway... I've never had any problems with him before but as of the past month I've noticed he started to close his right eye. I thought maybe he just had something in it, but I've noticed he started to keep it closed maybe 80% of the day, opening it only occasionally, and even then he has it squinted. I searched through the many threads on here and most relate to infections or light problems. I have examined him over and over, and there is nothing apparently wrong with his eye. There is no oozing, gunk, custyness, no debris, no cuts...I can't figure it out. I even bought some saline eye drops to help clear out debris and hydrate the eye if that was the problem...but it only works for maybe an hour. Then a couple days ago I noticed he started to close/blink his other eye (left)...sometimes having both closed at the same time. Occasionally when I'm present I've seen him rub his eyes against the branches...
I clean his cage regularly, wiping down the branches, removing debris and waste...Nothing has helped...
I have him in a screen cage (that I bought at reptile depot along with him) that is 15" 3/4 X 23" 3/4 and 14" 5/8 deep. I have a plastic lining at the bottom to help with excess water from misting and for easier clean up (but no substrate). I have a small ficus tree and an umbrella plant with various sized branches. I keep the cage on a side table that's about 2ft off the ground.
I've read many threads and articles about the UVB problems and I'm wondering if this is what it is...I use a ReptileGlo 5.0 uvb 26W coil in a deep domed lamp fixture that sits atop the cage along with a basking lamp (sorry I don't know the brand or watts since its a lamp I took my ex when I moved out over a year ago) and have a set timer for on and off. And yes, I do take him outside to get natural sun when it's nice out.
He still eats (mealworms, waxworms, crickets, silkworms, and occasional fly or spider) and I've see him drink...Still very active- walking around cage etc, though I have caught him a couple times sleeping during the day (hence I thought infection)...I've examined his waste and everything looks normal too...
I have experience with veileds and panthers before, but never had this kind of problem...I'm kinda at a loss besides taking him to a vet...

Would love some feedback. Anything helps!

I now have 2 Fischer's. My older one--who was an adult when I bought him--is about the same size as yours. My newer one--also an adult--is considerably larger, at least an inch and a half bigger nose to vent. I think there are different types of Fischer's some are smaller than others.

How old is the bulb? I know their ability to produce the healthy rays starts to diminish after they are 6 months old or so.

How is his poop looking?

You probably should fill in this form: https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/ . You'll get more helpful responses when that information is made available.

Yes there are sub species under the classification of Fischer's Chameleon, but I'm unsure which he is exactly. The enclosure Reptile Depot had him in was just labeled "Fischer's Chameleon" and they all ranged in sizes. I just told the guy, "I want a fairly young, but healthy male" because I had just recently loss an adult female veiled and didn't want to deal with the egg laying and I wanted have him for longer than I had my adult veiled.

The uvb bulb I bought at the end of Jan of this year so it's barely 2 months old...I've always used uvb bulbs before this and never had a problem...

Like I said, his poop is looking normal (post a pic of some when I cleaned it out...not fresh, prolly 1-2 days old). And he can still hunt, I just watched him get 2 crickets right now...so still healthy appetite.

And yea I saw that "how to ask for help" thread. I tried to give as much info as I could and I believe I answered most of those questions...

1. Fischer's chameleon, male, purchased sept 2008, has been in my care for 1 year and 6 months (possible age around 1yr 7months-10months?)
2. I don't handle him often, only when necessary as in cleaning his cage, or examining for health problems.
3. He eats mealworms, waxworms, crickets (pre-gutloaded but I keep them with fresh fruits and veggies 24-hr before I feed). He gets around 2-3 mealworms and 2 wax worms everyday- crickets every 2-3 days.
4. I have Fluker's repta-calcium: vitamin D enriched which I dust his food like once, sometimes twice a week with.
5. I spraymist him 2-3 times daily, making sure nearly all the leaves have water droplets on them. I do see him drinking.
6. Fecal looks normal, has the white urine sack attached to the dark brown waste sack. Not abnormal looking. Never been tested for parasites.
7. I can't think of any past history that could be useful since I've never had any problems before.

Cage Info: I already described my cage, the set up, and the lighting in my first post. Lights on automatic timing- turn on at 7am, turn off at 7pm. I don't have a temp gauge, but my apt never gets below 68 and never higher than 84 (during summer). Right now my apt doesn't go above 76. My set up allows for him to have a high basking area and also low shady areas to get away from the heat. Humidity, i have no idea, no gauge, but I have 2 live plants (small ficus and umbrella tree) that help with humidity, and he's never had trouble shedding. During the summer, Sacramento can become very humid. Placement of cage, 2 ft above ground, I live in apt, so not much space to really choose from. Near patio door, but back enough that doesn't bother him. There is a ceiling air vent in the middle of the room but it does not flow directly on his area. And I am located in Sacramento, CA.

What's the cage humidity range? Fischeri are touchy about hydration and a closed eye is often an early clue that the habitat is borderline (before more obvious things show up like orange urates, sunken eyes and casque). There may not be an absolute physical signs of eye injury, but drier air does irritate the tissues and cornea. And, if the eye is itchy he may tend to rub it more adding to the irritation. The reaction? closing the eye. At some times of year the room and cage may be drying out faster than you realize.

I raised a "giant" fischeri years ago and found his growth rate was fairly slow compared to a veiled or panther. Ecologically that makes sense to me...many montane species take longer to mature physically.

yea I have no idea. Ill have to run to the store to pick up a humidity gauge today.

What UVB light did you use before this one?

Maybe you could try removing the present one for a few days to see if it makes a difference?

IMHO you should be dusting with a phos.free calcium powder at most feedings.
What does the Fluker's repta-calcium have in it in the way of calcium, D3, phos., and what source of vitamin A does it have if it contains it?

Hi, I also think the vitamin A thing would be good to look into. I have one question, does the eye thing improve when you take it outside? Since you say that it is basically totally fine (no ooze, healthy poop) it might be "voluntary" because of the light quality or flicker. You should try to safely leave him outside for 24 hours or more to get a valid test out of the experiment.

So it sounds to me like your care regimen is fine. Are the pics current? I think you have a female. If you were treating a male this well its horns would have to be way bigger by now and same with the tail base. I'd say treat it like a female untill you see proof. Maybe she's just mad at you.

That's good looking poop!

I only pressed on the form because I've seen it become an issue even when good info has been given. If there's a potentially serious problem, it's better to do the form exactly as it's laid out so there's no chance anything gets missed.

kinyonga, when I went to the Flucker's site, a reviewer said it "uses a source of D3, and not d3 meaning they get a very small amount of D3"...I have no idea if that even means anything, but maybe you do. I couldn't find a good ingredient list for it. I tried to find a MSDS...because doesn't there have to be one?...but couldn't. (and, frankly, the fact that they didn't have a link to the complete ingredient list sort of pissed me off....if they're proud of their supplement then shouldn't they give me all the information they can?)

**edited because Seeco posted**

I've seen male Fischer's with horns that small (not mine). However, if it's a female then there is the possibility of eggs, which means getting a laying bin in there now (I had a female I lost to my not understanding the egg thing....she had longer horns than the one in the picture!). Unless you've seen something (sperm plug?...exposed hemipenis?) that makes you dead sure this is a male, a laying bin might be the safest idea.

Carlton said:

What's the cage humidity range? Fischeri are touchy about hydration and a closed eye is often an early clue that the habitat is borderline (before more obvious things show up like orange urates, sunken eyes and casque). There may not be an absolute physical signs of eye injury, but drier air does irritate the tissues and cornea. And, if the eye is itchy he may tend to rub it more adding to the irritation. The reaction? closing the eye. At some times of year the room and cage may be drying out faster than you realize.

Click to expand...

This is what I was thinking. Raise the humidity way up, not just hydration. If you keep the cage out in the open like that, I have a feeling he is over exposed in the sun. Sun is great, don't get me wrong. But a chameleon like that needs high humidity and a way to escape the hot sun.

Everyone:
Thanks for replying to my post! I also posted on Fauna's forums, but no one has helped...just directed me to over here, which I already was on...


I took the pics just 2 days ago. I'm pretty sure he's a "he", I've had him over a year and he's never done any egg laying behaviors which I've experienced since I had a female veiled for 3 years before this lil guy. And the Reptile Depot guy told me it was a "he"...and after I asked him twice, he asked another RD worker who also confirmed...But who knows what could happen...And I don't handle him a lot, but when I do he doesn't get too upset, just occasionally "humphs" at me, but he's actually pretty calm when handled...

I've used the same brand of uvb before this...I have 3 previous boxes of the same ReptileGlo light. I've already turned it off earlier today and just left the basking light on...he still kept his eye closed (but continued to eat crickets). And the calcium dusting, I've read a bunch of different opinions on that, some say to dust only once or twice on feedings, some others say every day, so thats why I'm not really sure how much I should do it.

Oh Elizadolots, on the container the D3 statement says that this specific calcium product is, "preferable for reptiles...who eat large amounts of crickets, mealworms, wax worms, mice, etc., all which are high in phosphorus." It also says if the reptile eats small amounts of these then the person should buy their calcium: phosphorus 2:1......"Ingredients: Limestone flour, flavor, D-activated animal sterol (source of vitamin D-3) Calcium not less than 36.00%" So is this not a good calcium product???

I actually went to the pet store yesterday and bought some ZooMed "repti turtle eye drops" which I've read on other threads that ppl have used this, and it contains: water (isotonic saline solution), solubilizing hydrotrope, vitamin A palmitate in an oil base, cyanocobalamin (vitamin B12). Dunno if these will help...?

And he does keep his eye closed even if he's outside or in the shade. That thought crossed my mind also, but when I tried it the results were what I just described. And I keep a eye on him so he doesn't get over exposed to direct sun...
My question is, should I have in a different enclosure than an all screen one and how can I up the humidity in an all screen cage? I thought enclosures with glass in them was not good since the reflection could cause stress...? And is there anything else specific that I should have since he's a mountainous species? Know any good websites or books on just Fischer's? I'm having a hard time finding really good info/care info on them.

~Amber

Well...artificial D3 has adverse effects on absorbing other vitamins so, there's a general belief that supplements with D3 should not be given more than 2 or maybe 3 times a month. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in on that.

Weather has been weird this year...that could be enough to trigger an egg experience.

It's a cheap safety precaution so I would say you should put a laying bin in regardless.

I wouldn't be suggesting it is if were costly or difficult.


Hydrating a chameleon in distress is rarely a problem so I would say up the misting schedule a bit. It might just be a response to the weird weather this year.

I know a guy who lost ALL his chams to fumes when he got his carpets (rugs not chams) professionally cleaned. Is there any source of airborne vapors or irritants? Maybe it has seasonal allergies.

Seeco: I have not cleaned my carpets ever with any chemicals, I just vacuum regularly. And when I clean my apt, I put his cage outside so none of the chemicals such as windex gets to him...and I tend to have my windows open nearly everyday for airflow (mainly for myself really). And it is spring here in Sacramento, and the trees and plants are tossin' out their blossoms and pollen, but I've lived here 2 years, and I've had him for 1 year and 6 months (he's been through spring and summer before) and he's never had eye problems before.

Elizadolots: How old when chameleons start to display egg laying signs? Because like I mentioned, I've had him for 1 yr and 6 months and he's never shown egg laying signs....(no digging, no large abdomen, loss of appetite, etc.) But I'll throw somethin in there anyway.

Yes it has been strange weather...just 2 days ago when I took those pics it was like 75-80 degrees and then today it rained and was cold....

I'm leaving to home in Monterey County next week for my spring break and if he's not better by then (I HAVE to take him with me cuz I have no one to care for him in my absence) I'll take him to an exotic vet in Monterey that has been recommended by other reptile owners...

allwalksoflife87 said..."And the calcium dusting, I've read a bunch of different opinions on that, some say to dust only once or twice on feedings, some others say every day, so thats why I'm not really sure how much I should do it"...all I can tell you is that every time you give the chameleon the usual feeder insects the ratio of calcium to phos. will still be poor so IMHO you have to make up for it every time. (I don't dust heavily.) I have kept Fischer's a few times in the last 25 years and they seem to live healthy fairly long lives.

As far as egglaying...I have never had a female Fischer's lay eggs without having mated....but I have not had "hundreds" of female Fischer's to base this on. There is a pot with soil in it so I would think it would have done some digging there at least if it needed to. Although the tail angle is not what I like to see to sex it it looks male...but the short horns make me wonder.

Elizadolots said..."kinyonga, when I went to the Flucker's site, a reviewer said it "uses a source of D3, and not d3 meaning they get a very small amount of D3"...I have no idea if that even means anything, but maybe you do. I couldn't find a good ingredient list for it. I tried to find a MSDS...because doesn't there have to be one?...but couldn't. (and, frankly, the fact that they didn't have a link to the complete ingredient list sort of pissed me off....if they're proud of their supplement then shouldn't they give me all the information they can?)"...it definitely would be good if they listed the ingredients! I still wouldn't dust with a powder containing vitamin D more than twice a month...I still like to have them get most of their D3 from exposure to UVB.

Have you tried gently flushing/misting his eye with water? If there is something in the eye it might get it out.

Ya, vit A:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/eye-problem-27421/index2.html

PrEformed vitamin A can be dangerous and needs to be given carefully....and although it can play a part in eye problems you need to look at the whole picture....how much D3 is it getting, for example. A vet should be able to test for vitamin A levels.

kinyonga: thanks for the info on the dusting. And yea I've flushed out his eyes with purified water, then i tried saline solution, and then yesterday i went and bought zoomed repti-turtle eye drops with vitamin A in them and gave him each 2 drops in each eye. There doesnt seem to be anything in the eye that is bothering him and ive looked extensively and very close... It has to be like dry or an infection since when he opens it, he keeps it squinted and blinks and then shuts it again. He moves his eye when its closed up, but he doesn't like to open it at all.

I'll probably end up taking him to that vet in monterey....but I hope he grows more...cuz he seems so small still......ill post pics of when i first got him and then some i took a couple days ago.....his horns have grown but not that much........ :|

2 left pix are from the day I bought him: Sept 19th or 20th 2008. 2 right pix: March 24th 2010......

He looks like a male to me, but I'm far from an expert...he just seems to have a "package" and his horns, particularly when he was younger, look masculine to me. His horns aren't really long but I know there are variations there. He's probably never going to be big. From what I've read, chameleons grow all their lives, so he will get bigger, but as he's an adult now, it probably won't be much. Small is not bad!

How is he doing?

So how's the eye?














(it's a girl)

Looping back a bit: if you have humidity issues, then maybe you can wrap the cage in a shower curtain? Not all of it, but I've seen people here say they built a PVC frame, put it on top and hung the curtain from the PVC. They could have it cover 2 or 3 sides as needed...that would help with keeping the humidity up without going to a new enclosure.

And, yes, how's he doing?