Culling Eggs - Your Thoughts and Opinions

I just want to get an idea of how people feel about it.

Rules to keep this discussion classy:
-No name calling
-Don't bring religion into this
-Be polite
-Don't flame anyone
-Lets try to leave culling chameleon babies out of this

The definition of cull in this thread: to selectively destroy chameleon eggs


What are your thoughts on culling eggs? (not babies.) Does it make a difference if they are fresh or older? How about opening old eggs? Does the method matter?

Im very open on things like this. if the eggs are fresh and you dont want 100babies but that what you got(but a good breeder would known how to control food better) than its ok. the girl worked hard to make those eggs, but its not like she feels feeling or a loss for them. chameleons dont protect eggs for fresh ones imho are ok to "kill". over a month and i'd say no. they are to far along and you've waited to long. you need to know what your doing to have babies to tend to anyways.

also freezing them seems the best way (not with a live animal!) but with non devolped eggs a day in the freezed should do it with no pain. just bad conditions for the eggs to germinate(like a seed )

Im on the fence on this.
I agree with everything Okiroo said. but then it still has the potential to be a baby, and what if that one egg you destroyed was making a killer colered cham?

Then again, i also agree that sometimes you want to breed, but even if you feed and care for a female properly, that they can lay too many eggs for you to handle. I mean, come on, 50+ eggs at one time=too many babies to feed.
but if you can handle say 25 babies, then its ok.

I think... that Its ona case by case basis. and if my female that just liad had had more than the 38 eggs she laid, i might have considered it.


When it comes to opening old eggs. i think when done carefuly, i believe seeco has a thread/blog on doing thism that it cant hurt, as long as you dont cut the baby.
for example, if you have 10 eggs, and 9 have hatched, and the last baby to hatch was a week ago... and you still have one egg left, but it looks good... i think id candle it. maybe give it another day or two.. then seriously think about cutting it open.
if the baby is alive, then maybe you can get that last baby. if its dead.. and you know you didnt kill it with the scissors, then it didnt cause much harm anyway.
BUT i think this is a drastic measure, and should only be done by someone who is sure they can snip the egg casing WITHOUT harming the baby inside.
because, maybe that baby just couldnt break through the shell. maybe the shell was too thick, or he had tried and ran out of his yok sack..

JMO.

Oh cutting old eggs, forgot that, i say no beacuse that one is either to weak to hatch(wont make strong gentics) or it isnt ready yet. some just take longer than others. even a month or two.


Reminder- the thread good thing that come to those who wait by lizzardlover(i think)

To be quite honest, I planned on doing this with my current clutch. I wanted to keep about 2-3 babies and planned on culling all the eggs except maybe 10, so that the number of babies that I had to place wouldn't be as large. They are crosses, after all. My boyfriend convinced me to just keep them all and essentially give them away to people who want them, so for now that's what I'm doing. Of the 23 eggs I have more than half of the babies reserved by people, which is reassuring, but I still worry about some of them going unwanted. I can house them for several months with no problem, but I don't have room for 10 adult cages, on top of the ones I have already. So I haven't made up my mind 100% yet.

If I were still to do it, I would do it soonish, when the eggs are about 4-5 months. I figure that by now we know for sure that the eggs are good, that they're developing well, and which ones are doing the best. I have a few that are bigger than the others, for example. So I have no qualms about freezing a few eggs almost half-way through at this point.

It's not that I'm cold, it's just that I've taken my fair share of embryonic development courses and I know what's going on in there. I just know there's not much to be empathetic with when you freeze an egg at this point.

Interesting topic, Pssh!

Olimpia said:

To be quite honest, I planned on doing this with my current clutch. I wanted to keep about 2-3 babies and planned on culling all the eggs except maybe 10, so that the number of babies that I had to place wouldn't be as large. They are crosses, after all. My boyfriend convinced me to just keep them all and essentially give them away to people who want them, so for now that's what I'm doing. Of the 23 eggs I have more than half of the babies reserved by people, which is reassuring, but I still worry about some of them going unwanted. I can house them for several months with no problem, but I don't have room for 10 adult cages, on top of the ones I have already. So I haven't made up my mind 100% yet.

If I were still to do it, I would do it soonish, when the eggs are about 4-5 months. I figure that by now we know for sure that the eggs are good, that they're developing well, and which ones are doing the best. I have a few that are bigger than the others, for example. So I have no qualms about freezing a few eggs almost half-way through at this point.

It's not that I'm cold, it's just that I've taken my fair share of embryonic development courses and I know what's going on in there. I just know there's not much to be empathetic with when you freeze an egg at this point.

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Very interesting. I think since you know the development phases, it does sound easier for you.

and i will be more thna happy to give a male a home for you!

camimom said:

Very interesting. I think since you know the development phases, it does sound easier for you.

and i will be more thna happy to give a male a home for you!

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XD!! you already have a zoo. your one male from a hoarder!!

okiroo said:

XD!! you already have a zoo. your one male from a hoarder!!

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totally aware! haha. but.. what can i say... they are awesome! and i love the concept of a cross cuz its a mystery cham! you never know what youll get!

I don't think culling eggs should be necessary unless you're trying to drive up prices. We're not at the spay and neuter your chameleon stages yet.

I have no moral objection to culling but I would think purely from a biological standpoint you would be better off allowing them to all hatch and increasing the possible captive gene pool and also allowing weaker ones to die is healthy. If I have 100 babies I have no choice but to allow the sick and weak to die whereas if I have culled to 10 I would be able to focus ad save the weak ones. (this is why captive breeding often results in sick animals in my opinion)

I would never do this just because I think if you are breeding and take on that responsibly you should have the funds and care ready for the babies no matter how many there are. You should know how many eggs to expect when breeding panther chameleons and have done your research and have gotten ready for them. and its not there fault you dont want them all. JMO. Though ever one thinks different ....

Olimpia said:

To be quite honest, I planned on doing this with my current clutch. I wanted to keep about 2-3 babies and planned on culling all the eggs except maybe 10, so that the number of babies that I had to place wouldn't be as large. They are crosses, after all. My boyfriend convinced me to just keep them all and essentially give them away to people who want them, so for now that's what I'm doing. Of the 23 eggs I have more than half of the babies reserved by people, which is reassuring, but I still worry about some of them going unwanted. I can house them for several months with no problem, but I don't have room for 10 adult cages, on top of the ones I have already. So I haven't made up my mind 100% yet.

If I were still to do it, I would do it soonish, when the eggs are about 4-5 months. I figure that by now we know for sure that the eggs are good, that they're developing well, and which ones are doing the best. I have a few that are bigger than the others, for example. So I have no qualms about freezing a few eggs almost half-way through at this point.

It's not that I'm cold, it's just that I've taken my fair share of embryonic development courses and I know what's going on in there. I just know there's not much to be empathetic with when you freeze an egg at this point.

Interesting topic, Pssh!

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I'll take one if your worried. Lol
As for the topic at hand. I think it would be ok. Its better than trying to hatch then and be way over your head, and the babies suffering because of a lack of food our other things needed to keep the babies

I will care for every egg until it molds over or incaves and is clearly non viable. I also would never breed an animal I didn't have the means of caring for or I would give them away to some one who could the extras. I have over 100's of chameleons eggs multiple clutches backed up that are about to be hatching very soon and multiple bins of geckos eggs that are hatching weekly. I have a hard time throwing out moldy eggs that I knew were fertile.

You should be able and prepared to hatch and care for what is given by your species. So if you breed panthers you better be prepared for large clutches and multiples from one breeding. If not. Then get a job at zoo , exotic pet shop or work with a friend in breeding or just by the number of animals you want is what I think but thats my opinion. Id like to see people breed a dog just for one puppy and kill the rest . Yea seems a bit selfish just to say yea I breed and raised my own but I had to kill the other 20 because I got what I wanted.

If you "kill" the egg quite quickly after it is burried, its not really alive yet. Feed dead eggs to roaches and they're not entirely wasted

I cant imagine why you'd do it (why not just give the babies or eggs away, or allow for less egg production in the first place)

But I have no moral issue with reducing the number of viable eggs.

After all, I eat fresh free-range chicken eggs, so I must be killing chickens. For that matter, I sometimes eat chicken.

Even vegetarians murder vegetables.

Olimpia - why not start taking "orders" now for nearly free chameleons? You could just charge enough to cover food costs for the first month or two, then hand them over. I've never had any trouble selling my chams, even crosses, if the price was right. Your market may be different. But having a 10 or 20 "orders" up front might relieve your concern

I don't have a problem with it, I just think the option of giving up the eggs should come first. If they die is shipment.... Then I guess it was a better chance then they had before.

I'm sure they're edible.... Most expensive egg salad ever?

I discussed this topic with a few other members behind closed doors, for fear of starting a mob. lol

Well since then plans and ideas have changed. But I live in an apartment and can only take on but soo much Adult Chams. I only wanted just the experience of breeding my Cham.

I have a friend that has Monitor lizards and they would welcome a egg treat of Cham eggs since they eat chicken eggs at times. My plan was to do exactly as Olympia described and only keep about 10 of the further along in development eggs and feed the rest off to my friend's Monitors.

Granted I'm going to manage my Female's diet and temps to minimize the clutch. But a " small" clutch being 20 or so eggs . That would, in my mind be hard to find homes for ( or so i thought, seems i have a lil waiting list brewing). I now have a back-up plan and will proceed with a full clutch. The ChamForum would get first dibs to the clutch and the rest would be sold in bulk to a local mom n pop pet shop (pending they can house them properly while at the shop).

But for some time i have thought about what if i could not get the majority of the clutch sold.

Good thread.

Maybe I should clarify that this mating wasn't planned - at least not when it happened. I graduate from college next December and foresee a move across the state, hopefully with a new job, and to look for a house to rent with my boyfriend. I had wanted to breed them closer to the end of Fall so that the eggs could hatch practically in summer, when I imagined that I would have been in a better position to care for everyone. If I'm in a house with a yard I have all the space in the world for outdoor cages, for example. They'd all love living outside, too.

I could have discarded all the eggs if I'd wanted to, since this wasn't the right moment for any of this. Not when I don't have a stable job yet and have 19 credits to worry about. But I'm not heartless, so I didn't want to get rid of all of them. It's not like I put them together and only thought about the consequences later.

Sandra, that's not a bad idea. I was only planning on charging a little to offset the cost of food, so having people pre-order them wouldn't be a bad idea. I don't want to say how much I'm asking, because I don't think Brad would appreciate it, but let's just say a nice dinner for 2 would probably cost you more!

DanSB said:

I don't think culling eggs should be necessary unless you're trying to drive up prices.

I have no moral objection to culling but I would think purely from a biological standpoint you would be better off allowing them to all hatch and increasing the possible captive gene pool and also allowing weaker ones to die is healthy. If I have 100 babies I have no choice but to allow the sick and weak to die whereas if I have culled to 10 I would be able to focus ad save the weak ones. (this is why captive breeding often results in sick animals in my opinion)

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I would never let prices drive a decision about culling, but then I have no financial interest in chams. I don't have a strong need to produce babies other than gaining husbandry experience. The fate of those babies would wear at me too much too.

The genetic makeup of all the eggs in the same clutch would be similar if not identical. If the female laying the eggs had been mated by different males you could have more genetic mixing, but not if there were only two original parents (unless you know there are lots of recessive genes in the parents).

I think I'd watch the developing eggs and select the ones that seem most vigorous. When you think about it, that same clutch in nature could also have less viable eggs that don't develop or weak hatchlings that don't survive too. Personally, I would find it much more difficult to "allow the sick and weak to die" once they hatched than to cull an embryo before it has had a taste of life with all its drives and motivations to survive. Watching a youngster struggle and suffer is something I can be merciful about and prevent.

Texas Ranger said:

I would never do this just because I think if you are breeding and take on that responsibly you should have the funds and care ready for the babies no matter how many there are. You should know how many eggs to expect when breeding panther chameleons and have done your research and have gotten ready for them. and its not there fault you dont want them all. JMO. Though ever one thinks different ....

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That brings up the fact that some people don't intend for them to mate and it happens anyways or they get a female that has previously mated but dont want the eggs.


I've actually shipped fertile eggs, so that is always an option. (To ship them to someone who wants them.) But it has to be done carefully and soon after being laid. I actually shipped them through priority mail and two were viable, but only one of the three total hatched successfully.

Carlton said:

I would never let prices drive a decision about culling, but then I have no financial interest in chams. I don't have a strong need to produce babies other than gaining husbandry experience. The fate of those babies would wear at me too much too.

The genetic makeup of all the eggs in the same clutch would be similar if not identical. If the female laying the eggs had been mated by different males you could have more genetic mixing, but not if there were only two original parents (unless you know there are lots of recessive genes in the parents).

I think I'd watch the developing eggs and select the ones that seem most vigorous. When you think about it, that same clutch in nature could also have less viable eggs that don't develop or weak hatchlings that don't survive too. Personally, I would find it much more difficult to "allow the sick and weak to die" once they hatched than to cull an embryo before it has had a taste of life with all its drives and motivations to survive. Watching a youngster struggle and suffer is something I can be merciful about and prevent.

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Perhaps you wouldn't let prices drive that decision but most would. Parsons eggs are less likely to be culled than senegal eggs.The experience is the same, the life is still life, but one has a huge dollar value and is in high demand the other is not.

Even with only two parents there will be quite a bit of diversity. There are a lot of ways for those genes to mix up!

I agree with you that it would be very very difficult to allow the weak or sickly to die and I don't know that I could do it. But if we are looking at the health of overall captive genetics it might not be a bad idea to at least ensure they don't breed.

camimom said:

totally aware! haha. but.. what can i say... they are awesome! and i love the concept of a cross cuz its a mystery cham! you never know what youll get!

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I only have one pair, can I have one, male or female, no preference...