Worried

Cage Info:

* Cage Type - Describe your cage construction (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? Screen –18x18x24 in.
* Lighting - What brand, model, and type of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? Reptisun UVB 5.0
* Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? The heat lamp is on top of the cage. The ficus and sticks enable secure climbing from top to bottom of the cage. I live in SoCal and the room he is in gets morning sun, so temp ranges are in the 70s day and night.It may drop into the high 60’s at night occasionally.
* Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? The plant helps maintain humidity and he gets misted twice a day. We have no humidity gauge in the cage right now, but I keep T’s and find the gauges to be inaccurate.
* Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? Yes, his cage is full of a live plant, a ficus.
* Location - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? The cage is more than 5 feet off the floor. It is not located near fans or vents. It is a low traffic area (on a dresser in my bedroom).


Chameleon Info:

* Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care? I have had the chameleon for about a month and a half. He was a month old when I bought him. He is unsexed but the shop that it was likely it was a male, but that is still unknown.
* Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? Every other day or so for a few minutes to keep him used to being handled.
* Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders? I use gut-loaded crickets. About 4 a day smalls a day. They eat Flukers. I use the vitamin dust.
* Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? It is Vita Reptile on dusted crickets once a week.
* Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? I use the mister twice daily until he drinks (plus I mist down the entire cage and the ceiling, so it continues to drip for awhile).
* Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? Brownish, green, pasty. No.Cage Info:

* Cage Type - Describe your cage construction (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? Screen – I don’t know dimensions Mark, can you measure
* Lighting - What brand, model, and type of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? I don’t know the brand or type of lights – Mark can you say?
* Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? The heat lamp is on top of the cage. The ficus and sticks enable secure climbing from top to bottom of the cage. I live in SoCal and the room he is in gets morning sun, so temp ranges are in the 70s day and night.It may drop into the high 60’s at night occasionally.
* Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? The plant helps maintain humidity and he gets misted twice a day. We have no humidity gauge in the cage right now, but I keep T’s and find the gauges to be inaccurate.
* Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? Yes, his cage is full of a live plant, a ficus.
* Location - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? The cage is more than 5 feet off the floor. It is not located near fans or vents. It is a low traffic area (on a dresser in my bedroom).


Chameleon Info:

* Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care? I have had the chameleon for about a month and a half. He was a month old when I bought him. He is unsexed but the shop that it was likely it was a male, but that is still unknown.
* Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? Every other day or so for a few minutes to keep him used to being handled.
* Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders? I use gut-loaded crickets. About 4 a day smalls a day. They eat Flukers. I use the vitamin dust.
* Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? It is Vita Reptile on dusted crickets once a week.
* Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? I use the mister twice daily until he drinks (plus I mist down the entire cage and the ceiling, so it continues to drip for awhile).
* Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? Brownish, green, pasty –Mark can you check
* History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. Mostly he is just quite chill.
* Current Problem - The current problem that you are concerned about. He seems listless and clumsy (which he wasn’t before) and has been hanging upside down for the last 2 day, resting against the leaves, which he has never done before.
* History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. Mostly he is just quite chill.
* Current Problem - The current problem that you are concerned about. He seems listless and clumsy (which he wasn’t before) and has been hanging upside down for the last 2 day, resting against the leaves, which he has never done before.

Your chameleon is definitely too thin and not looking well...I would get it to a vet ASAP!

Any recommendations for a vet? I live in Lomita, CA - that's just south of LA very close to Long Beach.

waitwill said:

Any recommendations for a vet? I live in Lomita, CA - that's just south of LA very close to Long Beach.

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Dr. Stein in Beverly Hills or Dr. Greek in Yorba Linda. Both are fantastic Cham vets.

Dr. Greek # is 714-463-1190

Dr. Stein # is 310-550-0101

Thanks to both of you for the input. I made an appointment with Dr. Stein. We really are responsible pet owners - the change in the cham was pretty sudden, and s/he is our first.

waitwill said:

Thanks to both of you for the input. I made an appointment with Dr. Stein. We really are responsible pet owners - the change in the cham was pretty sudden, and s/he is our first.

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Dr. Stein is an awesome vet. He will take great care of you. I have an appointment with Dr. Greek tomorrow for a carpet of mine who has not laid all of her eggs. These things happen . You willing to act so fast will make all the difference. Please keep us updated. I hope all turns out well.

Howdy Waitwill,

It was great meeting both of you tonight .

I just finished running a quick fecal smear test for parasites on that super-tiny poop sample. The good news is that I didn't find any traces of parasites. Let Dr. Stein know. It is likely that your Panther's current condition is not parasite related .

I'm glad that he(?) took that tiny droplet of liquid calcium. It is a good start at getting his calcium levels pointed in the right direction. It was hard to tell if he got any of the droplet of liquid vitamin D3 into his mouth.

I forgot to leave you the little package of Pedialyte but using "Ensure" instead is probably better anyway.

The change from a compact Reptisun 5.0 to an 18" linear tube will eliminate that potential issue.

Changing the ceramic heater to the light is important too.

Between now and your vet appointment tomorrow evening will likely show a change one way or the other .

Keep in touch with all of us .

Thanks, Dave, for your willingness to help. Sadly, we were a little late, and HisNibs didn't make it.

I am beginning to think that the problem may have been that he never got enough to eat. We thought that he looked a little thin, but we have no real basis for comparison. There were always live crickets in the cage, but now I think that may not have been adequate. The sudden change of behavior was what alarmed us, and then he seemed to decline very rapidly. When I read that 4 mo. olds. were eating 15 crickets a day, it made me think that HisNibs was not eating nearly that much.

We would like to try again, but this is my concern - are chams in general extremely delicate? I was under the impression that if you did the right things - provide a heat source, UVB, live food, misting, and a low stress placement for the cage - you could keep a cham alive. It was put this way -"They are not hard to keep alive, but there are a few things you have to do."

If we tried again, I would probably post pics here on a semi-regular basis, just to monitor his general appearance. Believe it or not, we are pretty conscientious pet owners, and we feel pretty bad about this.

I am sorry for your loss.

waitwill said:

Thanks, Dave, for your willingness to help. Sadly, we were a little late, and HisNibs didn't make it.

I am beginning to think that the problem may have been that he never got enough to eat. We thought that he looked a little thin, but we have no real basis for comparison. There were always live crickets in the cage, but now I think that may not have been adequate. The sudden change of behavior was what alarmed us, and then he seemed to decline very rapidly. When I read that 4 mo. olds. were eating 15 crickets a day, it made me think that HisNibs was not eating nearly that much.

We would like to try again, but this is my concern - are chams in general extremely delicate? I was under the impression that if you did the right things - provide a heat source, UVB, live food, misting, and a low stress placement for the cage - you could keep a cham alive. It was put this way -"They are not hard to keep alive, but there are a few things you have to do."

If we tried again, I would probably post pics here on a semi-regular basis, just to monitor his general appearance. Believe it or not, we are pretty conscientious pet owners, and we feel pretty bad about this.

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Hi Waitwill,
I'm sorry for your loss.
But, Panther and veiled chameleon are generally considered "harder" compared to common reptile (like gecko and bearded dragon).
However, as long as you kept their optimal living condition, you can pretty much eliminate a lot of the problem.

There are some adjustments that you can make when I saw your list of equipment. I am sure all of us here would love to share you some suggestions.
A part of the underlying problem lies in the age of your chameleon.
1 month old baby requires a slightly different cage setting.

have you seen this link? http://www.adcham.com/html/husbandry/babycare.html

They dehydrate way quicker than the adult.

Another problem is from where you got him.
I do not know how the shop is run; so, I cannot say this for sure.
But, as far as my experience goes, petshop often sell underage animal, share horrible advise on caring for chameleons, and also kept their chameleon in a horrible situation.

So, my suspicion is that they (knowingly or not knowingly) sell you an already sick chameleon.

My suggestion, next time, is to get a slightly older panther/ veiled (3 months old) from a reputable breeder (from expo or online).
If you live in socal, this january there will be a reptile expo in Pomona.
A lot of chameleon breeders will be there.

Sorry for your loss.

You said...I am beginning to think that the problem may have been that he never got enough to eat" and "There were always live crickets in the cage, but now I think that may not have been adequate"...if there were always crickets in his cage then I would say its more a case of him not eating enough rather due to some health issue.

You said..."The sudden change of behavior was what alarmed us, and then he seemed to decline very rapidly"...this is why its important to pay attention to any changes. They hide their sickness well in most cases.

You said..."We would like to try again, but this is my concern - are chams in general extremely delicate?"...chameleons in general are more difficult than many of the lizards (like leopard geckos, water dragons, etc.) to keep...but with all the husbandry advances in the last few years veileds and panthers are usually pretty good to keep....as long as you do things right!

You said..."I was under the impression that if you did the right things - provide a heat source, UVB, live food, misting, and a low stress placement for the cage - you could keep a cham alive"...proper supplements and gutloading the insects are also important. Of course, you need to have a healthy chameleon to start off with..and there is a mortality rate in hatchlings that there isn't much you could do about.

Unfortunately...we all make mistakes...but, hopefully we all learn from them and from the mistakes of others...and do better the next time.

If you were interested in another Chameleon and want to give it a try I could help you seeing you are local. I have some Carpets available and could get you setup with a beautiful CB male. PM me if you would be interested. I will give you a great deal.

I have not offered them up to anyone yet and this would be the only one for now. You seem like someone willing to do what it takes to take care of the little guy.

How do you feel about Carpet Chameleons ? There Challenge is Humidity compared to Panthers and Veiled. 70-75 with a 85 basking spot at about 70% humidity. The take up very little space. I keep my older ones in 16x16x30 screen cage with lots of cover. Your cage would work fine. I would be willing to get you setup and help you with any questions you should have. If you go to the meetings bugs and gutload can be picked up.

I just love carpets , they are like little panther Chameleons. Anyway I thought I would throw that out there.

Howdy Waitwill,

Sorry to hear that he didn't make it .

You two are certainly very conscientious and capable keepers so don't let your doubts stop you from trying again .

Carpets are nice, especially if you don't have room for a 2'x2'x4' enclosure that an adult Panther or Veiled would eventually need. Just do your research and talk with past and current Carpet keepers to get an idea of any particular issues that you need to take into account. But don't let this experience keep you from trying another male Panther either. Let's talk !

Thanks everyone for the good advice. We would know in future not to buy from a pet store. We are still interested in the chameleons and will definitely try again. We are interested in going to the expo in Pomona and attending the socal society meeting so we can do it right this time

waitwill said:

Thanks, Dave, for your willingness to help. Sadly, we were a little late, and HisNibs didn't make it.

I am beginning to think that the problem may have been that he never got enough to eat. We thought that he looked a little thin, but we have no real basis for comparison. There were always live crickets in the cage, but now I think that may not have been adequate. The sudden change of behavior was what alarmed us, and then he seemed to decline very rapidly. When I read that 4 mo. olds. were eating 15 crickets a day, it made me think that HisNibs was not eating nearly that much.

We would like to try again, but this is my concern - are chams in general extremely delicate? I was under the impression that if you did the right things - provide a heat source, UVB, live food, misting, and a low stress placement for the cage - you could keep a cham alive. It was put this way -"They are not hard to keep alive, but there are a few things you have to do."

If we tried again, I would probably post pics here on a semi-regular basis, just to monitor his general appearance. Believe it or not, we are pretty conscientious pet owners, and we feel pretty bad about this.

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Sorry to hear about your loss..normally as long as you are doing the right things(which it sounds like you were for the most part) raising a cham is not to hard..Although if one or two essential parts of the husbandry are a little off and not corrected thing can spiral downward pretty fast, I'd give it another run!, you seem like you have the patience to care for one of these animals. Ask as many questions as possible, frequent this site, and i think you'll do fine next time around.. sometimes depending on the breeder, shape of the dam while gravid,shipping conditions,ect.. the chams are doomed from the day you get them..again,sorry to hear about your loss.give it another shot!
Ray