Science Experiment: Calcium Dusting vs Feeder Selection

[AnimeCham]

Please help me on this quest to expand our Chameleon knowledge.

Hi Everyone,

I would like to get your input on a project I am looking to start and would love any feedback you might have good or bad. I am going on a quest to build a giant bioactive vivarium (somewhere around 10ft wide by 6ft tall by 3ft wide) to house my chameleon with multiple species of insects and possibly other reptiles to determine if dusting is absolutely needed. I will also be having a control that will be a brother to verify growth and health. This control will be kept separate and ensure proper dusting is maintained. I have attached an image of some of the predators / feeders / cleaners / feeder and aesthetic plants I may use and listed them below. I want to do this as responsibly as possible so that is why I would love your feedback on any suggestions for anything I should include or remove from the list.

Apex Predator: Chameleon

Other Predators: Anole, Tree Frog, Mantis, Gecko, Snake, Turtle, Salamander

Feeders: Hornworms, Silk worms: Blue Bottle Flies, Discoid Roaches, Green Banana Roaches, Grasshoppers, Super worms, Crickets, Wax worms, Butter worms, Bees, Ants, BSFL, Fruit Flies, Butterflies, Dragonflies, Stick Insects

Cleaners: Spring Tails, Isopods, Snails, Darkling Beetles

Feeder Plants: mustard greens, turnip greens, dandelion leaves, watercress, alfalfa, collard greens, Dwarf Mulberry, Hibiscus

Aesthetic Plants: Pothos, Vines, Moss, Bromeliad, Branches, Logs, Umbrella Plant, Snake Plant, Hawaiian Ti, Ferns, Creeping Fig, Croton, Air Plants, Nerve plants, Philodendron, Wild Baby Plants

 

[kinyonga]

Welcome to the forum!

Is this science experiment for school or for you to learn more about keeping chameleons in captivity?

 

[AnimeCham]

Welcome to the forum!

Is this science experiment for school or for you to learn more about keeping chameleons in captivity?

This is a personal experiment. I would like to test the levels of calcium supplements we need to provide. I plan to have vet visits for him as well to catch and issues like MBD. I want to see if some of the other predators like Anoles that the Chameleon might eat to be able to get the necessary supplementation. I am trying to work my way up the food chain. Including feeder plants to gut load feeders and so on. The feeders would breed to continually have food source available. This will be studied over several years.

 

[kinyonga]

Food for thought..
One reason we dust the insects the way we do is because these are not the exact species of insects that a chameleon would eat in the wild…so the dusting is to compensate for what might be missing.

One site that talks about this…
“Insectivorous animals in the wild likely consume a wide variety of invertebrate species. In captivity, we can only reliably provide a limited number of invertebrate species, few of which are good nutrient packages by themselves. Therefore, we have a responsibility to administer a feeding program with supplements that compensate for known shortcomings in the nutrient composition of the invertebrates that are available to us.”…
https://nagonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/NAG-FS003-97-Insects-JONI-FEB-24-2002-MODIFIED.pdf

 

[AnimeCham]

Thank you for the article. I have been looking into the Calcium to Phosphorus ratios as well. This is one reason I may not include crickets as a feeder since the Ca to P is bad. I would like to include feeders with better Ca levels like BSFL, Stick Insects, Dragonflies, Butterflies, Bees, Etc. Do you know of any sites that have more detailed mineral content of other feeders?

 

[kinyonga]

There are sites that have more details…I’ve posted them in the past…I’ll see what I can find but it may not happen tonight.
You can try a search on here in the meantime.

Here’s one to get you started…
https://geckotime.com/nutritional-value-of-commercially-raised-insects/

 

[PetNcs]

Frankly, I miss here a bit of scientific approach
What is the hypothesis
What has been researched yet
What is it good for
What will it ring
What are rhe risks
What methods will you use to measure what
Why you chose such hummongous open air cage?
Etc etc
For me, you do not know what you do. Please no offense it is in helping mode
And my English is not enough to candy coat this message.

Yo will not be a le to proce in outdoor cage of huge size whether we need or nit to dust animals with supplements. It is incomparable.

And I can tell you some answers already now:
No, we do NOT need to dust the feeders.
I can tell you how to do
Not to dust them.

Please, think twice and make a project proposal, it is especially for you to channelize your energy and enthusiasm into efficient work that makes sense. You are not there, by far.

 

[AnimeCham]

Frankly, I miss here a bit of scientific approach
What is the hypothesis
What has been researched yet
What is it good for
What will it ring
What are rhe risks
What methods will you use to measure what
Why you chose such hummongous open air cage?
Etc etc
For me, you do not know what you do. Please no offense it is in helping mode
And my English is not enough to candy coat this message.

Yo will not be a le to proce in outdoor cage of huge size whether we need or nit to dust animals with supplements. It is incomparable.

And I can tell you some answers already now:
No, we do NOT need to dust the feeders.
I can tell you how to do
Not to dust them.

Please, think twice and make a project proposal, it is especially for you to channelize your energy and enthusiasm into efficient work that makes sense. You are not there, by far.

Hi PetNcs - Thanks for the feedback. Yes this is not documented as as scientific document yet. I am doing research from various articles and resources to determine the potential for a self sustaining ecosystem to provide for a Chameleon with minimal need for me to provide constant food source. Instead, I would like to create something large enough that will house multiple feeders that can reproduce within the enclosure. With that in mind there would not be a calcium dusting on the feeders. I would need to rely on the feeder plants to provide a good gut load and other reptiles like Anoles that would also be potential food for the Chameleon. I will have a scientific control (brother Chameleon: same blood line) that would have fewer food options but would be dusted to see if there is any difference in the health of the chameleons show better in one or the other. There have been many talks about the supplements we use for dusting like Repashy, Repti Calcium, Arcadia Earth Pro and what levels of minerals our Chameleons need when we have a more limited food source like crickets which have become a staple feeder but need a lot of added supplements to balance them to be a healthy food source.

Also I am happy to take any criticism. No need to candy coat. I can take it

 

[AnimeCham]

LOL @PetNcs just realized you are Petr Necas. Thank you again for your feedback. I have reviewed quite a few of your posts on Chameleons.info and many of your interactions on other sites like Chameleon Academy / Podcast with Bill Strand. Your post that is on you home page reviewing the fecal samples showing a high concentration of hymenopterans and lepidopterans gave me insight to want to include more of those within the enclosure.

 

[AnimeCham]

There are sites that have more details…I’ve posted them in the past…I’ll see what I can find but it may not happen tonight.
You can try a search on here in the meantime.

Here’s one to get you started…
https://geckotime.com/nutritional-value-of-commercially-raised-insects/

Thanks. There is no rush. I will not be doing anything soon.

 

[PetNcs]

Hi PetNcs - Thanks for the feedback. Yes this is not documented as as scientific document yet. I am doing research from various articles and resources to determine the potential for a self sustaining ecosystem to provide for a Chameleon with minimal need for me to provide constant food source. Instead, I would like to create something large enough that will house multiple feeders that can reproduce within the enclosure. With that in mind there would not be a calcium dusting on the feeders. I would need to rely on the feeder plants to provide a good gut load and other reptiles like Anoles that would also be potential food for the Chameleon. I will have a scientific control (brother Chameleon: same blood line) that would have fewer food options but would be dusted to see if there is any difference in the health of the chameleons show better in one or the other. There have been many talks about the supplements we use for dusting like Repashy, Repti Calcium, Arcadia Earth Pro and what levels of minerals our Chameleons need when we have a more limited food source like crickets which have become a staple feeder but need a lot of added supplements to balance them to be a healthy food source.

Also I am happy to take any criticism. No need to candy coat. I can take it

OK, please work on the scope and description otherwise you get something unusable

As is, the explanation is simple: yes of course you need no supplements if yiu gutload the feeders lroperly and use proper aua
But this has been proven by Mother Nature for millions of years.
I have many years kept
My calyptratis outside here in central Ehrope from April till September and they of course needed no single supplement as they were feeding on the bugs from the wild…
Still not clear on what you actually want to get as an output, because the answer to your question is known

 

[PetNcs]

LOL @PetNcs just realized you are Petr Necas. Thank you again for your feedback. I have reviewed quite a few of your posts on Chameleons.info and many of your interactions on other sites like Chameleon Academy / Podcast with Bill Strand. Your post that is on you home page reviewing the fecal samples showing a high concentration of hymenopterans and lepidopterans gave me insight to want to include more of those within the enclosure.

Nice to meet you