Slight signs of Gular Edema in my veiled

After looking over my female veiled today while feeding her i noticed her neck has gained some swelling, and after comparing the swelling to pictures ive searched for on the internet, this is what she has. I'm blaming myself for over supplementation of calcium with d3. I know its still controversial as to what exactly causes the Edema but alot of the sources i gathered info from said that over supplementing with calcium with d3 can cause the issue, especially used alongside regular calcium. The other possible causes of the edema dont match up to my keeping practices but im still taking them into consideration. Shes staying well hyrdated and besides the puffy neck shes eacting completely normal and her in her gravid state is going really well so far. I'm cutting back on the calcium with d3 and i'll only be giving her that once a week from now on but dusting with calcium w/o d3 i need to continue because shes about 15 days gravid and she getting quite plump. If i see the problem progress in the nest day or 2 significantly ill be taking her to my vet for blood work and an examination. Just wonder what some of you have done to reverse the effect to Gular Edema and what steps i can start taking to reverse it myself.

Supplementing schedual
mon. calc w/o d3
tue. calc d3
wed. calc w/o d3
th.calc d3
fr.calc w/o d3
sa. multivitamin (this i will start using 3 times monthly)
su. calc d3

Ive been bumping up the calcium for her because of the eggs but i think i should be using less of the calcium w d3 and im sure some of you will agree. Problems like this i guess ill never learn to approach if i dont experience them! Thanks for any suggestions anyone throws out to me.

The main cause is believed to be over supplementation as you stated that could also mean vitamins as well. I would stop the supplementation and try to flush out her system with lots waterings don't force her to drink she will on her own. Also when females become gravid this will happen also.

Not sure if this applies, but too much sodium can also cause edema in chameleons because it helps retain too much water.

I wish someone could figure out this d3 thing! Dr. Wheelock just posted a great article and if I'm reading it correctly, he suggests that supplementing with d3 is not really needed if your lighting is correct or your cham has outside access. I'm cutting back from once a week to once a month. If anyone else read the article, is this what you understood also? Any opinions? David

Dean Pulcini said:

The main cause is believed to be over supplementation as you stated that could also mean vitamins as well. I would stop the supplementation and try to flush out her system with lots waterings don't force her to drink she will on her own. Also when females become gravid this will happen also.

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stop the supplementing even though shes gravid? I added an additional dripper to her cage as well in addition to the misting system that comes on 4 times a day for 2min each misting. So the water will flush out the excessive supplements? You have seen this is other gravid females?

Edema is more likely caused by extracellular minerals such as potassium. Make sure that in the calcium supplement there is not a lot of potassium as a preservative. Try to switch some of your calcium supps to pure calcium carbonate (Tums). Make sure that the gutload doesn't have a lot of potassium in it.

Also I have a female that laid two weeks ago, she developed edema while she was gravid and then about a week after she laid the edema subsided. I have spoke with other breeder and they too have seen this in some females, and all the females' edema subsided. Humans also get a bit of edema when they are pregnant. The retention of water is necessarily a bad thing during pregnancy.

-chris

Nicodemayo said:

stop the supplementing even though shes gravid? I added an additional dripper to her cage as well in addition to the misting system that comes on 4 times a day for 2min each misting. So the water will flush out the excessive supplements? You have seen this is other gravid females?

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I would continue to dust some feeders with the calcium without D3.
By the way ... I have suggested D3 only twice a month for animals over 6 months old for quite a while now. I only use it once a month.

-Brad

What about vitamin A? Is she getting any preformed A?

My daughter dumped my vitamins a few months back, and all I had was herptivite afterwards. I didnt' replace the other stuff for a few months. My female veiled develops gular edema - first time I've seen it in one of my animals. I went to the store and bought fluker vitamins, which has a good amount of preformed A in it. It was 100% cleared up within a week. I only gave her two crickets dusted with the stuff.

People are often so paranoid about vitamin A, they are undersupplementing their animals.

Well vit A...if not completely used is only stored...forever. And if eventually it gets too high then it can become toxic. I didn't say either way, support or against, only the reasoning behind the fear.

-chris

chriscarter said:

The retention of water is necessarily a bad thing during pregnancy.

-chris

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The retention of water is NOT necessarily a bad thing in gravid females.

Also, adding a dripper to help with edema is not necessarily going to work. Plain water will still be attracted extracellularly if the toxicity of the extracellular minerals is high (i.e too much calcium or potassium as Chris was saying). Using a medium such as Pedialyte instead of plain water should help to restore the balance, or as others have said, simply pulling back on these minerals that may or may not be the culprit of the edema your female is experiencing.

In humans, there are two different kinds of edema, pitting and non-pitting. Pitting is identified when you press a finger into the swollen area and the turgor is low (the imprint of your finger remains for some time). Non-pitting edema is more common. This is what you probably see --> your chameleon has some swelling. This can also be due to problems in the lymphatic system, not just electrolyte imbalance. The lymphatic system is a separate system that helps to deliver digested fats and fat soluble vitamins. If too much vitamin A is being administered to the chameleon, it is possible that there will be too much vitamin circulating throughout the lymphatic system, causing some swelling.

Either way, it appears to me, that one would be best in considering the adage "Everything in moderation." Consider learning more about the best ways to supplement.

One should NOT consider vitamins or minerals to be medications to problems. Treatment shouldn't be addition of these supplements. Vitamins and minerals should be a regular, but monitored part of the diet. We, as caretakers and scientists, have come to learn that these things PREVENT rather than TREAT disorders of various sorts.

I believe, and it's probably pretty generally accepted, that chameleons should be on a strict regimen that includes a variety of insects with additional supps used sparingly and carefully. These vitamins and minerals that are added, are obviously better and more bioavailable when obtained in a more natural form, such as from the insect itself. I recognize that this is not always possible, and this is why we offer supplementation monthly or bi monthly, or even more often than that, but certainly not every time we feed them.

Good luck! I feel that if you pull back on some of the supps and allow her body to adjust, you will see that the edema will subside. It was likely a warning sign to you that she was experiencing a sort of overdose. Which one? Can't tell ya. Sorry!

Thanks for the input! Ive talked to a few people about this and have been told to just keep and eye on here and continue what im doing (minus the multivitamin and less calc with d3). Chris carter said some females just do this when theyre gravid and that often times with mike from fl chams will see this in gravid females and it subsides shortly after they lay. Im not to worried about it but i will keep you all posted.