Curiosity. ( Super long post) Very interesting topic in my opinion

First off, totally have to say Elizadolots, I am totally not ragging on you, i have to thank you for sparking my interest in this subject!!!


So here is whats going on. on the subject of feeders, i had recommended to use a varied diet. Eliza brought up the excellent point of how changing an animals diet can cause adverse effects on the digestive system.

Here is the basic conversation.

Elizadolots said:

Yet, my dogs eat the same food every single day and all the advice is to not vary that. The advice is, if I need to make a change, to do it gradually by mixing old and new food together....

I honestly do not buy the "you must use a wide variety of feeders" thing...I get that it's the BEST thing to do, but there's a HUGE expanse between "best" and "not good" and feeding one insect, well gut loaded, falls into that range.

While I, personally, regard superworms as instruments of the devil and beings capable of devouring my soul* I know that they are pretty good as staple feeders go. I've had some pretty respected members berate me for my aversion to them.

*(okay...I might have over stated that, but I really am terrified by them...the fact that every time I've seen one it reared up and waved its body at me did nothing to remove that fear)

Click to expand...

My response
Hmm.. While i completely agree with that as far as cats and dogs go, i have never had any luck with a single dietary staple with any of the other animals i have raised, i have always had more healthy and vigorous animals when fed a wide variety.

Anywho its just a personal opinion, as i stated i am no expert, its just the pattern i have seen so far in my experiences. You do have a valid point however on how switching foods with dogs will lead to upset digestive systems.

come to think of it, the two things are not all too different. A constantly varied diet, would act as a normality in their dietary schedule would it not? Therefore switching an animal from a varied diet to a constant diet would have the same effects as rapidly switching the diet of an animal who is used to one food type. Just a theory. Now i am intrigued and have to look into this further!

haha Oh dear, i've started in again on one of my curious tangents which will inevitably lead to less sleep and more time spent in front of the computer and books researching haha


End my response



So, this brings me to my next statement.
Please correct me if i am getting off the potential correct path with this.


An animals diet, once established should be consistent.

Be it one type of food, or a variety. the pattern of feedings should be consistent. Correct?

My main question is this,

If an animal used to a varied diet, ( varied yet consistent) has a sudden dietary change ( major change such as switching over to all one type of food, or all new types of food) then it would result in the same effects as an animal used to a diet consisting of one type of food ( a consistent diet.) Key words here being consistent diet mind you haha, whom then changes to a new source of food.

Both situations start out with a consistent diet.
Followed by a major dietary change.
Both should result in similar ways correct?


I think most of this post is completely redundant! haha Just working out my thoughts in writing.

Does that seem like sound logic?

Thanks Eliza for giving me some mental stimulation!!

haha i probably sound like a raving mad man thinking out loud like this!

All that being said, it really all depends on what your animals are used to haha. At least in my opinion

Interesting topic.

Well, just had my curiosity sparked and it sent me a totally redundant babbling spiral of curiosity and logic.

Instead of totally restating everything i'm going to post a link to the thread. Please tell me what you think! not sure if linking to another post is allowed or not . so i really hope i don't offend any mods or members.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/curiosity-super-long-post-very-interesting-topic-my-opinion-76953/


What do you think?

You bring up some interesting points and I can totally see where you're coming from. I get like that a lot of times when I hear something and I suddenly get mixed feelings on the matter and start to question things. And I hate to respond to this with such a simple statement but the way I see it is chameleons are opportunists; they see something, if they're interested they pop it. If they like it they chew it up and eat it, if not they spit it out. Not sure about dietary problems with going from a varied diet to an all new diet or a single feeder or vice versa but I can't say for sure that it's not something to look into. Good luck and let us know if you figure anything else on it

You could have just "bumped" the other post.



You stated:

First off, totally have to say Elizadolots, I am totally not ragging on you, i have to thank you for sparking my interest in this subject!!!


So here is whats going on. on the subject of feeders, i had recommended to use a varied diet. Eliza brought up the excellent point of how changing an animals diet can cause adverse effects on the digestive system.

Here is the basic conversation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizadolots View Post
Yet, my dogs eat the same food every single day and all the advice is to not vary that. The advice is, if I need to make a change, to do it gradually by mixing old and new food together....

I honestly do not buy the "you must use a wide variety of feeders" thing...I get that it's the BEST thing to do, but there's a HUGE expanse between "best" and "not good" and feeding one insect, well gut loaded, falls into that range.

While I, personally, regard superworms as instruments of the devil and beings capable of devouring my soul* I know that they are pretty good as staple feeders go. I've had some pretty respected members berate me for my aversion to them.

*(okay...I might have over stated that, but I really am terrified by them...the fact that every time I've seen one it reared up and waved its body at me did nothing to remove that fear)

My response
Hmm.. While i completely agree with that as far as cats and dogs go, i have never had any luck with a single dietary staple with any of the other animals i have raised, i have always had more healthy and vigorous animals when fed a wide variety.

Anywho its just a personal opinion, as i stated i am no expert, its just the pattern i have seen so far in my experiences. You do have a valid point however on how switching foods with dogs will lead to upset digestive systems.

come to think of it, the two things are not all too different. A constantly varied diet, would act as a normality in their dietary schedule would it not? Therefore switching an animal from a varied diet to a constant diet would have the same effects as rapidly switching the diet of an animal who is used to one food type. Just a theory. Now i am intrigued and have to look into this further!

haha Oh dear, i've started in again on one of my curious tangents which will inevitably lead to less sleep and more time spent in front of the computer and books researching haha


End my response



So, this brings me to my next statement.
Please correct me if i am getting off the potential correct path with this.


An animals diet, once established should be consistent.

Be it one type of food, or a variety. the pattern of feedings should be consistent. Correct?

My main question is this,

If an animal used to a varied diet, ( varied yet consistent) has a sudden dietary change ( major change such as switching over to all one type of food, or all new types of food) then it would result in the same effects as an animal used to a diet consisting of one type of food ( a consistent diet.) Key words here being consistent diet mind you haha, whom then changes to a new source of food.

Both situations start out with a consistent diet.
Followed by a major dietary change.
Both should result in similar ways correct?


I think most of this post is completely redundant! haha Just working out my thoughts in writing.

Does that seem like sound logic?

Thanks Eliza for giving me some mental stimulation!!

haha i probably sound like a raving mad man thinking out loud like this!

All that being said, it really all depends on what your animals are used to haha. At least in my opinion


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then you asked,"Hey, just posted new topic which has my mind going haha any input?"

To which I though,"No".

Then I figured I did, indeed, have input.


I dont see that feeding a cricket, gutloaded with specific items, for a year in a chams life, then switching to roaches, gutloaded on the same said items, would have any negative effect.

I dont see that switching the gutloads would show this "negative effect".

I dont see that changing and varying all the minerals, vitamins, nutrients that an animal recieves wouldnt be good for them to some extent.

People cant live off one food. We need many, and many more to thrive.
I have switched my food intake in an extreme way at various different times. I had no particular issue with doing so.

So as long as we are not exceeding a safe amount of any said nutrient, vitamin, or mineral to the point its toxic, or adding any poisonous vitamins minerals or nutrients, then I think its safe to bet that the more randomness in a chameleons diet the better.

As soon as someone can analyze the exact ratios of the exact vitamins, nutrients, and minerals that a chameleon eats in the wild, then finds a way to provide me with a way to administer them to my chameleon, I MAY try it.
Though I doubt it.

Chameleons eat what they eat in the wild because that is what they are stuck with.
There are people who eat just rice, because thats what they are stuck with.

Does that mean they shouldnt eat other things as well?

I'm with Solid Snake here.........I think that for all omnivorous animals the more variety the better (within the reasonable parameters of not too much protein that you cause gout, not too little calcium or D3 so you get rickets or MBD)
Sudden changes may cause certain short term problems at times, but for someone who never eats fruit and veg to start eating their 5 a day is definitely healthier (even if it causes some small digestive discomfort)
You could have a consistent and varied 'bad' diet, then changing it would be 'good'
Or you could have what Elizadolots was talking about, a less varied but 'good' diet, in which case just adding loads of fat and sugar and preservatives to make it more varied would be 'bad'

Dogs and cats are fed food that man has made up for them that contains everything that they need to thrive. Isn't that what we are trying to do by feeding the chameleons as wide a diet as we can and completing it by adding supplements and gutloading/feeding the insects to make up for what we feel it lacks?

kinyonga said:

Dogs and cats are fed food that man has made up for them that contains everything that they need to thrive. Isn't that what we are trying to do by feeding the chameleons as wide a diet as we can and completing it by adding supplements and gutloading/feeding the insects to make up for what we feel it lacks?

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Beat me to it! Dog food is not "one thing", it is a full complement of nutrition, vitamins and minerals. Same thing with cat foods. In the wild they would be eating lots of things to get the same effect. Now with my cats, I change their food all the time. Cats are picky and I want them to enjoy variety so that when I need to eventually change them to kidney or some other special diet I don't want them to throw hissy fits about it. Since I change the brand and flavor of their food pretty often it is normal to them so they don't get upset stomachs. Their gut flora is not specific to one type of food. Now if I wanted to give them all fresh meat diet I think they would have some adjusting to do. If we blended up all the crickets and worms into a single diet it would be like offering Purina Chameleon Food. Instead, we give them the actual bugs.

So the changing of food is kind of like you eating all healthy for months and then going to McDonalds and having a super sized big mac with jumbo fries. You will feel like crap after eating it because your body isn't used to all the extra fat, cholesterol, salt etc. that was not in your norma diet! Your body's endocrine system and gut flora will need to adapt to that to digest it. Chameleons are not so domesticated as dogs and cats or us. They are only a generation or two (if even that) from their wild cousins. They evolved adapted to eat whatever they can find, and they still have that in them to the full extent. I doubt that different bugs/worms are made up of all that different stuff. So if the nutrients are the same format then the gut is already prepared to digest it. Now if we were to suddenly throw in some oatmeal (to the cham, not crickets) or something, I think they'd have a harder time since their bodies aren't used to that. I've never seen ill effects from suddenly throwing worms into their staple cricket diet (and they've had long spells of only crickets). And I wouldn't expect to.

Here is my original comment that brought this all up:

" my veil eats crickets, Dubia roaches, Superworms ( 1 every few days) and veggies ( every day, grazing off and on) as his typical diet. Other things such as phoenix worms and other insect feeders are rotated in and out of the diet.

In my opinion, the best way to look at it is like this.

Lets say your favorite food is Chicken. You eat it in the morning, at lunch, and at dinner.

You eat this way each and every day. While you may be getting filled up, all you are receiving is a constant supply of the nutrients in the chicken. You slowly begin to run out of vitamins and nutrients not found in the chicken and become sick because all you are getting is from that one, constant food.

Yes this is why we have dusts and supplements. However, i feel that this is no substitution for a varied diet.

Try to switch up the foods slightly every now and then as well as using a well rounded base feeder.

I agree! Varying your gutloading helps as well.

Goldenarcher1328 said:

Here is my original comment that brought this all up:

" my veil eats crickets, Dubia roaches, Superworms ( 1 every few days) and veggies ( every day, grazing off and on) as his typical diet. Other things such as phoenix worms and other insect feeders are rotated in and out of the diet.

In my opinion, the best way to look at it is like this.

Lets say your favorite food is Chicken. You eat it in the morning, at lunch, and at dinner.

You eat this way each and every day. While you may be getting filled up, all you are receiving is a constant supply of the nutrients in the chicken. You slowly begin to run out of vitamins and nutrients not found in the chicken and become sick because all you are getting is from that one, constant food.

Yes this is why we have dusts and supplements. However, i feel that this is no substitution for a varied diet.

Try to switch up the foods slightly every now and then as well as using a well rounded base feeder.

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Goldenarcher1328 said:

Less then 2 months into chameleon ownership, i have already constructed a giant enclosure for a female Veil. I love it and i'm obsessed!!!


Im confused...in 2 months you have become quite the knowledgeable person on chameleons and their care...

not making any assumptions, but this reminds me of that guy bechsgaard (i think thats how you spell it) ...

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sdheli420 said:

Im confused...in 2 months you have become quite the knowledgeable person on chameleons and their care...

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I would think we should be pleased that we've educated so well. There's nothing wrong with discussing feeding principles. You don't need to be an expert to share ideas, especially with all the good info available here to learn from. He's not saying anything radical or lecturing anyone... Especially not compared to some of the short time super experts we've seen before...

ferretinmyshoes said:

I would think we should be pleased that we've educated so well. There's nothing wrong with discussing feeding principles. You don't need to be an expert to share ideas, especially with all the good info available here to learn from. He's not saying anything radical or lecturing anyone... Especially not compared to some of the short time super experts we've seen before...

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hahaha totally agreee!!

Surviving and thriving are two different things....

Yeah, a Cham can survive on an unvaried diet.. But they are not thriving. It's all about how much you care about well being. You can survive on all mcdonalds, doesn't mean it's for the best.

But.. Then again... An unvaried diet is not the worst thing that has ever happened to a chameleon...

Both true. I'd rather mine thrive than just survive personally.

At least hes asking questions about an important subject. This particular subject can never get enough exposure. Even with all the gutloading threads we still have ppl out there that dont know what the term "gutloading" means. I know I get at least 3-4 ppl at every show that come by my table and some already have chams and they dont have a clue as to what gutloading is or means. (You should see their faces when I explain that Flukers dry cricket feed and orange cubes arent gutloading items).

ferretinmyshoes said:

Both true. I'd rather mine thrive than just survive personally.

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Agreed ... That's why I feed crickets dubias silks hornworms pallid roaches... And soon to add banana roaches and dusky cave roaches and isopods... And maybe super worms. Haven't decided on them yet.

Oh and make 3 varieties/blends of wet gutload... Gutload is clutch. I posted bug booster on here for a while, it has just been challenging to ship. It works really well though.

Edit: I also have a dry mix

drcrossfire said:

Agreed ... That's why I feed crickets dubias silks hornworms pallid roaches... And soon to add banana roaches and dusky cave roaches and isopods... And maybe super worms. Haven't decided on them yet.

Oh and make 3 varieties/blends of wet gutload... Gutload is clutch. I posted bug booster on here for a while, it has just been challenging to ship. It works really well though.

Click to expand...

i use a dry gutload, a wet gutload (bug burger), fresh greens, and pollens

recently added dubia to my silkies, hornies, mealies, supers, and crickeys..


they just smile..

I'm excited that i sparked an intelligent conversation lol!

I love discussions on things like nutrition, physiology, psychology, biology, and all that good stuff!

I am a scientist at heart