What MBD looks like...

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Julirs

New Member
I think it is important to share the stories of these guys. If you have never owned or seen a chameleon with MBD, it might not be as obvious to you. We have seen members join that have chameleons with very advanced MBD and never knew it.
So here are the stories of my special chams...

Remy...A forum member asked me to take Remy in when he was about 8 months old. This was his first chameleon. He came from Screameleons-from a very nice blue bar line-complete with the cage kit, lights, etc. As far as I can tell everything was spot on for this guy except for a lack of supplementing and possibly adequate gut loading. Here is the thread when I first got him...

https://www.chameleonforums.com/meet-remy-little-rescue-panther-22362/

He is now 20-ish month old. His MBD has advanced slightly, but with initial injections and a proper and slightly heavier calcium schedule, he is still with us. He will periodically bulge his eyes, this is something that does not seem to harm him nor is it something we have figured out and Vit A seems to not really be an issue here. He sheds, basks, poops, moves around his modified cage, fires up at me and the ladies. He cannot hunt by himself and is a pampered spoiled hand fed little monster. I hold the food, he shoots it out of my fingers. He is getting ready for a good shed in these pics. In the pics you can also see the multiple "elbows" and bowing.





Hershey-I hatched Hershey in June 2008-my clutch of 69 that included Lombardi. He was the brown guy that everyone including the girls attacked whenever he came near. I still have 2 of his brothers here that are completely normal. Hershey was fine up until about 6 months of age when he stopped growing, his casque stopped growing, his legs started to bow, and he had trouble getting around. Hershey was supplemented and grown under the same UVB lights as everyone else. All of my chams also have the benefit of the great FL sunshine. Hershey however lives a far more normal life then Remy. He lives in a normal cage and eats on his own. He acts like a very normal chameleon. You can see in the pics his shortened and widened casque. I won't say he is tiny by any means, but he is thinner than his bulkier siblings and father, and only about 3/4 of their size.

 

Matt1851

New Member
thats terrible :(. so correct me if im wrong but what your saying is this can happen even if you have the uvb lights and give them there regular calcium suppliments?
 

Julirs

New Member
thats terrible :(. so correct me if im wrong but what your saying is this can happen even if you have the uvb lights and give them there regular calcium suppliments?
Yes. Some animals seem more prone than others. There are many things that can be hypothesized. Hershey being picked on could have been forced lower in the cage when younger getting less UVB-they were in tubs so I am not really sure this could be true, but he could have hidden, or basked less. He also could simply not metabolize calcium correctly which seems more likely to me. Remy is a classic case of not being supplemented correctly, but I have also seen many chams that were just fine and never supplemented. It is hard to say.
 

Miss Lily

Chameleon Enthusiast
Aww, bless 'em! Your 'special' chameleons are both beautiful in their own ways. :D Thanks for sharing the stories behind them - hopefully the information and photos will help others who are new to chameleons and, therefore, don't realise what 'normal' or 'abnormal' looks like.
 

chameleonneeds

Avid Member
Well this is the first time I have seen a panther with mbd.
Thanks for sharing your pics and stories and hope you do well and that Remy fully recovers.

My male veiled which I also had since he hatched also got mbd. He started with it at about 4 or 5 months of age. I also supplemented alot and he went out in the sun the whole day every day or every 2nd day. But he still got mbd.

But it wasnt so bad and he is almost fully recovered. Since he got it at his most prime growing stage does this mean his growth is now stunted or will he carry on growing as well as his casque?
 

jannb

Chameleon Enthusiast
They are both still beautiful animals even after the MBD. May your story help others to prevent this awful disease.
 

jeanjacket812

New Member
Metabolic Bone Disease its a calcium deffecieny disease. It weakens the bones. I had a veiled that got it and I didn't know what to do it is heartbreaking
 

SpinyFranky

New Member
Metabolic Bone Disease,

A condition in which the animal can not properly or efficiently synthesize Calcium into the blood stream and effectively the bone structure.

This results in bone loss and weakening, as signaled by the infamous bowlegged symptoms.

It is very similar to Osteoporosis in Humans, yet still significantly different.

Osteoporosis is a proneness to bone weakness and brittleness, which is the effect that MBD has on chameleons, however MBD is directly caused by inadequate amounts of D3 within the animal.

D3 is a naturally produced chemical within the animal that is stimulated through direct exposure to sunlight or specially designed products that emit light in similar spectrums as the sun itself.

No exposure to natural sunlight or these special products prevents the production of D3 and eventually slows down or completely prevents calcium absorption into into the blood. The bones begin to wither, symptoms appears, and eventually diagnosis is made.
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
SpinyFranky said..."MBD is directly caused by inadequate amounts of D3 within the animal."...this is not the only reason for MBD...it can be the result of not providing enough calcium, an imbalance in D3 and vitamin A, too little D3, etc. MBD is an umbrella term for several disorders related to the bones.

When there is not enough vitamin D3, you can give the chameleon all the calcium you want to and it won't correct the problem. You can have a poor balance between calcium and phosphorus and it will cause bone health issues. You can have a bad balance between D3 and vitamin A...they are somewhat antagonistic to each other...and you will end up with bone issues. And there are other issues that can be involved too. Even temperature can play a part...if the chameleon can't warm up enough to digest its food properly, then the nutrients won't be available for use by the body. MBD can also be a complication of kidney disease.

You said..."The bones begin to wither"...the bones begin to lose calcium...the calcium is drawn into the blood to keep the blood calcium levels right. PTH and calcitonin are involved too...PTH promotes the normal bone resorption process. Calcitonin draws calcium back into the bones. Together they try to keep the levels right.
 
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kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
I explained it because if someone comes along and reads your comment "MBD is directly caused by inadequate amounts of D3 within the animal" IMHO the first thing they are going to do is provide more D3. If its a kidney issue this is not going to help...nor is it going to help if they aren't providing enough calcium...so IMHO your answer was doing more harm than good. (Also...you will notice that I changed the comment about it not being true...it can be one of the causes.)

If anyone doesn't understand what I have said, then they can ask questions. Any newbies that post on here who have made mistakes are part of the learning curve and with proper help and information maybe they won't repeat it. I started keeping reptiles many years ago and I wish I had forums available to me then so that I could have had help and avoided some of my beginners mistakes.

BTW...I don't just accept what the doctor tells me without a proper explanation either. I want to know the whole story.

Julirs...I'm sorry that your post has gone the way it has....it was such a good idea to post a thread on it! Nice going with those two chameleons too!
 
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Julirs

New Member
I started this thread to help people understand what MBD looks like. I am happy to help where help is needed. Some of the people that started with a pet store chameleon will learn and become the "experts" of tomorrow.
Forum dynamics-live it, learn it, love it. If you don't like it-leave it.
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member
Let's keep to Julirs' intention and create a helpful resource for future readers. Please stay on topic, and if you have any personal differences deal with them in a private medium.
 
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Carlton

Chameleon Enthusiast
Metabolic Bone Disease,

A condition in which the animal can not properly or efficiently synthesize Calcium into the blood stream and effectively the bone structure.

This results in bone loss and weakening, as signaled by the infamous bowlegged symptoms.

It is very similar to Osteoporosis in Humans, yet still significantly different.

Osteoporosis is a proneness to bone weakness and brittleness, which is the effect that MBD has on chameleons, however MBD is directly caused by inadequate amounts of D3 within the animal.

D3 is a naturally produced chemical within the animal that is stimulated through direct exposure to sunlight or specially designed products that emit light in similar spectrums as the sun itself.

No exposure to natural sunlight or these special products prevents the production of D3 and eventually slows down or completely prevents calcium absorption into into the blood. The bones begin to wither, symptoms appears, and eventually diagnosis is made.
Osteoporosis and MBD are not all that comparable. Rickets is closer to MBD. Osteoporosis is a weakening of mature bone that already exists due to low calcium intake, hormonal change, age, etc. Rickets is due to deficiencies of B, B3, calcium during bone formation and growth.
 

OOOst16

Established Member
is it normal for chams with mbd to have funkey eyes like those? i never knew that symptom. learn somthing new every day.
 

Julirs

New Member
is it normal for chams with mbd to have funkey eyes like those? i never knew that symptom. learn somthing new every day.
Not necessarily. I have seen plenty of chams with MBD and no eye isues but I have also heard from other owners who have chams with MBD and similar eye issues.
 
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