WC cham 1st visit to A exotic

dimpleti

New Member
Hi everyone,

Do you still remember the WC cham that was collected outside the garden almost 4 weeks ago? He/She is doing just fine. He/she has gained about 1cm length and much weight too. Will be a month with us on Thuresday.

I hav to say, this forum really helped me a lot, so much on keeping this cutie little one. I really appreciate all the articles, discussions, suggestions and pics on the forums, eventho they are not for me, but I learnt so much.

Pls dont judge me that I am keeping the WC cham. I am just another cham lover fancinated about them. I may not know as much as you pros do, but I can learn and I am willing to.

Today, we took the first trip to an exotic vet since this morning I suddenly found a few tiny little dark brown spots on his right eye and right lower jaw. The spots are very few and light, cant really tell. My bf said its part of the changing color. But I didnt think so. I hav read so much here about the signs of illness and how chams hide them and all that, I spent some time here but couldnt get any conclusion. So, I decided to take him/her to see an exotic vet. There are only 2 reptile vets in the whole city--not many people keep reptiles. One is closer, about 50ks away, another is 60-70ks away, the latter said to be the best reptile vet. I called to confirm that the vet had seen many chams before and is very experienced with chams. So, We went.

The traffic was bad, we were 7 mins late for our 5:20pm app. So, we had to wait for the 6pm openning. My bf said if there is nothing wrong with the cham but he drove me all the way there and back, I hav to do everything that day without any complains.

Skinny just got a little fungus infection on the skin. Still in the very early stage. The vet gave me some liquid medicine to dilute with water to put onto the cham 2ic a week for 6 weeks. We also chatted about how to keep cham and all that. He actually supported me keeping the cham. He said the cham is still a very young baby, about two months. I am not sure, if so, then we got skinny only when it is one month? Some of my friends who had chams b4 said it is 4 months, some others say it is under 6 months. Anyway, it is a baby. The pooping part is still baby like--urate and facets together. The vet said a lot of chams die in winter coz it is too cold in the wild. and if I can mimic the natural environment but better, then why leave the cham in the wild? I know some of you might agaist this idea. But I want to try, not with skinny's life, but with my heart.

At any stage I feel I can not cope, I hav talked to a very experienced reptile breeder, she is willing to take over skinny and breed with this one.

Oh, 4got to tell, since skinny is too young, we cant tell the sex yet. But some of you were right, the vet also said if it grows older, if it is male, there should be a spur at the rear leg somewhere. I will see.

Thanx people

Kristi
 
The vet said a lot of chams die in winter coz it is too cold in the wild. and if I can mimic the natural environment but better, then why leave the cham in the wild?
It's not too cold in the winter, if it were there wouldn't have chameleons were you are. You cannot better a natural environment, and when you think you have bettered it, you have only made for a weaker chameleon.

All chameleons are regulated in their exportation for the pet trade based on their numbers in the wild and ability to cope with habitat changes. The species you are fooling around with is not commonly exported, especially being that South Africa has put a ban on exporting any chameleons. Consider that the one specimen could have, if left in the wild, gone forth to produce babies up to 4 times a year, and nearly two dozen babies each time. You're not only taking this life from the wild, but hindering the reproduction of countless others.

As I said in the first discussion, you are living in their wild, enjoy it. Every person from North American on this forum would trade their captive chameleon to have the chance to explore nearby areas and do REAL LIFE RESEARCH on these creatures on an everyday basis.
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
I hope the fungus is just a simple one not CANV. CANV usually kills the chameleon if not treated with an oral antifungal medication. Do the marks just look blackish? Are there any that look like tiny pox?
 

dimpleti

New Member
Hi Kinyona,

I am not experienced with chams, thats why I took it to the vet. The vet said its not serious, so I guess it is not CANV? What is that anyway?

The mark look brownish. It doesnt seem bother the cham at all. It is very active still and hunting for food as normal. I rubbed the cham with the diluted liquid medicine allover the cham's body, especially the brownish spots area. I think it wont disappear that quick. The amount is for 6 weeks in total. I will keep an eye on it. Wat is CANV? Wat are the symtoms of having it?


tx
 

dimpleti

New Member
Hi Will,

I understand wat you say.

I do not want to argue, I am not in the position to argue with anyone here, coz I am very amture with chams, and most of you guys here are pros. I know you guys love chams and try to protect them. Sometimes it does get very cold in winter here.

Some winters, very odd tho, but it does snow, very cold. Temp goes down to 2 degrees some winters. Normally about 6-7 degrees at night. That is the time when a lot of chams die, especially young ones. That is what the vet refers to. The nature is harsh. I am trying my best.

My only worry at the moment is the feeders. One time, one vet said moths are good to feed. The internet website about chams also incl moths as one feeder. Then I started catching moths every morning. But then the other vet says moths are not good, some of them are poisonous even. House flies are not recommanded neither due to they carry gems and bacteria. Attracting fruit flies are difficult. They are not around year round. Crix? not found everywhere, and normally they are too big. I want to breed silkworms, I even ask my garden designer to get me a mulbery tree. Then found out trading the tree is illegal here. Wat is not illegal? Kill people? Anyway, I am getting a branch of the tree and plant it in my garden. I hav to get silkworm eggs, then I found I can only breed them in winter. I dont know why. But I hav no way to get them now. Hav to wait for one more week to get 1000 pinhead crix, then I will breed them. Hope it is not too hard.

Nice to share all these experience with you.

tx

Kristi
 

TylerStewart

Right Wing Extremist
Site Sponsor
My only worry at the moment is the feeders.
Kristi
You could always try what the guy said in the last thread, and leave out strips of meat. Just make sure you keep your kids in the house LOL.

Mulberry trees are illegal to plant in Las Vegas anymore because of the allergies they cause. There's plenty of them around from 20+ years ago, but you can't add to it now. Not sure if that has anything to do with it there.
 

dimpleti

New Member
Hi Tyler,

Which thread exactly are you referring to?

Leave a few trips of raw meat outside? To attract fruit flies? Or what to attract? House flies, we hav planty here. Moths everywhere in the garden. Only fruit flies, cant see any of those, eventho I put pieces of peaches on cham's plants. Kids? Our only kids are great danes at the moment. But they are not realizing we hav one more member in the house still. They sometimes sniff the tank when I put the cham outside at lower place to get sun basking. But they only know it is a plant there. haha..

I hav got supplements, bio-vita, which contains vitamins, calsuim and minerals, white powder. But the cham seems not interested. If I ever dust flies with it, the cham does not shoot it. Can the cham tell that flies must be black but not white? I wonder...

tx

Kristi
 

Laragail

New Member
Maybe if you really want a chameleon you could just keep it for a little while and then let it go?

you could always find another one, keep it for awhile, release it, get another, etc.

or would that be worse?


also,
the weaker chameleons dying during the winter is probably actually GOOD for the species.
natures way of weeding out the weak.
 

dimpleti

New Member
Letting it go in the future is definitely an option. Breeding with this one is also another option, but only depends on if I can get another one after I can tell the gender of this one. Also, I need to get more knowledge and everything to breed chams. It is a very possible option. I am seeing a reptile expert sometime this week to next week, to get some opinions and tips. As I said, if it ever gets to hard for me to cope, I will let it go or let the expert to take over and breed with the cham. Seeing vets is not a problem. Equipments and everything is not a problem for me. Only thing if the cham is happy and healthy and it is gonna live and breed. I wont take that right away from the little cham. If I ever decide to keep it long, I will make it happen-to breed with the cham.
 

TylerStewart

Right Wing Extremist
Site Sponsor
Seeing vets is not a problem. Equipments and everything is not a problem for me.
The problem is that much of the time (dare I say, majority of the time?), vets don't know what they're talking about. Sure, they can diagnose a visual problem (skin infection, abrasion, etc), check for parasites, but you can take a perfectly healthy chameleon into a vet, tell them it's not acting normal, and they'll give you a list of things that are wrong with it (as well as a bill), and have you start pumping meds and forcefeeding it. Doesn't matter if the thing hatched last week, pin it down and GO! Also, your chameleon is likely an adult, not 2 months old.
 

FaunaBgirl

New Member
I am upset at the importers most. They are heartless and after money at the expense of many cham lives. Only a percentage make to their destination alive. That's murder, in my book.
And who's to say that your one WC cham would not have been plucked away by some bird and eaten, and you've spared it's life. I commend you for understanding that you should propagate your finding.
I believe your heart is in the right place and that you will study quickly and do all that is right. You've proven that by paying a vet to care properly for your cham.
I kind of hope that you find out it's a male, and that you find a female, let them mate, then quickly release the female. That would be the best way to do it.
Anyway... good luck on your new adventure in the world of wonders we all play in. :}
 

dimpleti

New Member
Hi Faunagirl,

Thank you so...much for your encouragement. I was like being defeated here most of the time, and feeling more like an outsider and many times thinking about giving it up. I just couldnt. I cried my heart out many times when I think about letting it go and not knowing what is gonna happen to it. You might think I am silly. All my friends think I am strange on the cham matter tho. I myself hav no idea how and why I can love this little creature. I was scared at reptiles all my life. But I fell in luv with this one immediately when it first time crawling on my hands. I dont know whether it is becoz its unique eyes that it is rolling, or its cute hands and feet holding the plants or the amazing tongue movement, or maybe the tail, or most probably its the ability of changing colors according to moods...It caught my heart.

Your encouragement and understanding is so constructive. I will definitely carry on study more and research more about keeping a cham. I will definitely look into the breeding part. I should never take that right away from the cham and do harm to the specy. I will see the reptile expert next week and get some tips there.

Just to update about the fungus infection: I am happy to see that the spots are fading away. One of two spots on the right eye is gone, and the other is on its way. I can only see one light spot on the lower right jaw today. A very good improvement. It gave me a heart attack this afternoon when I found there are big brown area on its mouth. I couldnt believe it! I thought It got worse. Then I used a cotton bud dip with some vet's prescription to pad that brown area. Then I found the cotton bud got brown. Then I use some water and wipe its mouth again. All the brown area is gone. The brown area actually is some of the peach pieces that I stick on some of the branches tips. Did the cham get a bite? :D

Thanx a million again.


Kristi
 

SeanCJ

Established Member
Hi Kristi,
I also think you are doing all you can for this little chameleon. You obviously care very much for it and I'm sure you'll do whatever it takes to care for it properly. Continue looking for a variety of feeder insects but you have to find a staple diet that you can use during your next winter. Proper hydration is also a must for all chameleons. Make sure it has plenty to drink by misting many times per day or installing a drip system that can supplement the mistings.
Like others have said, please continue with your online research into chameleon care requirements.
Did you ever tell us what kind of chameleon this is? Is it a veiled?
Some chameleons will eat plant leaves, fruits, and veggies, so its possible it took a bite out of your peach :)
Best of luck to you and the little cham!
 
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dimpleti

New Member
Hi Tygerr,

Still in the improve phase for the eqipments.

Remember I said I got a glass reptiquarium for the cham. I put umbrella tree plant in there. The plant is tall, and stands outside the tank. I dont cover the tank at all. Then I found most of you use meshed cage here. I also found that the cham gets too hot under african sun everyday when basking, especially during lunch time. So I bought a bird cage 75x50x40cm. Due to the holes between the wires are too big, so I bought meshes to cover around. The umbrella tree is not dense enough so I bought a small ficus benjimina, very dense leaves, as well. So if the cham does get too hot, then there would be enough shade to cool down. The mesh wire also stops some heat. The vet said it is very good to get a few hours sun shine a day. Nothing can be better than the real sun. Heika also mentioned that in another thread. I remember that. I take the cham out in the morning when the sun comes out, when it is not too hot and try to get a lot of basking, then if it does get too hot under the sun, I will put it under a shade where the sun can shine thru some leaves but not too hot. If it gets very hot even in the shade, I will bring the cham inside. Then take it out late afternoon before sunset again. Since I am at home all the time, so I monitor the cham in a very frequent basis.
I ordered repti 5.0 uvb light as the expert recommanded and bought a uva basking light 50w. At the moment the temp is quite high everyday, so the light is not in use. I am preparing for the winter. There is a dripper. I was investigating in the misting system that you guys talking about, coz at the moment I am doing the same thing as you do, use a spray bottle. But after chatting with the vet I hav changed my mind. I kinda of thinking the fungus is coming from too much misting. I mist the cham 3 times a day, soaken wet, hot to warm water. The vet said the one I hav is a different specy, so that do not require as much as misting as you guys chams do. This specy also adapts to the weather we have here, which can go high to 35 degree centigrade (95F) and can take down to 6-7 degree centigrade (42F). We dont hav much rain this time of the year, but I am misting it to much. The vet said a dripper is not necessary. I just hav to spray the plant wet, then the cham is going to drink from the plants. I did it today, and for the first time I saw the cham "drinking". It was actually licking the wet branches with the tongue. Very amazing. I didnt spray him wet since the visit to the vet. And it is getting better. Another vet that I called earlier on to consult also mentioned that this specy mainly consume water from leaves or the food they eat.
I hav bio-vita, the only supplements I can find at another vet. I sort of dust flies sometimes, but the cham is not interested dusted flies. I do not know if the cham can see that the flie is white but not black and refuse that or the cham can smell. I hav no idea.
The feeder is a bit challenging now for me. I ordered 1000 pinhead crix only come Thur after the Eater. I want to breed with them, so that I dont run out sometimes. I also read that silkworms are very nutritious. So I want to breed that too. I know you are doing that. I also read your funny mulberry leaving picking part. The expert said I can only breed in winter. I dont know why, hav to get eggs from her. I ask my garden designer to get a mulberry tree for me, not successful. So, I am getting a branch and will grow that in my garden. All these dont come right one night, I will try to get them in place asap.
Your suggestions and ideas are most welcomed. As well as critics.:D

tx

kristi
 

dimpleti

New Member
Hi Sean,

Hav read some of your threads here too. Thank you for your encouragement. I will put my heart there for the cham--skinny. It is not skinny anymore, it is a musleman.:) It has grow quite bit, about 1 cm longer and with thick fat legs. But it is still a baby, still growing. It weighs only 4g now, light. Think how much would it weigh when I got it 4 weeks ago?
The one I got here is cape dawrf cham, which wont grow big. The normal length will be about 8 inch, some big ones grow up to 10 inch. It is a local specy, which can only be found in the cape area. I hav a friend who I do horse riding with, she has a big land of 2.5 hecta, she also found the same species in her garden sometimes. I cant believe how they can go there. She has 5 horses, 8 dogs, 3 cats, 1 african grey parrot, 20 gold fish, ducks and chickens, there are sometimes wild snakes too...and there are chams on her plants. She never bother to take a closer look. She thinks I am brain crooked by doing all these for a cham. All the friends think I am strange.

I do care very much for skinny. That day on the way back from the vet, its almost 7pm, getting dark. The cham normally sleeps that time. In the car, the vibration comes from the car to the plant was very vigurous, skinny couldnt stay on properly. So, most of the time I was holding skinny on my arm with my arm in the air, so that can reduce much of the vibration. I was holding in the same position all the way back. Skinny actually went to sleep half way on my fingures. My arm was sore after 40-50mins holding up, but I was happy. How can I tell cham is happy?

I am happy that I can share some of the cham experience here with people hav the same interest. And I am amazing at the knowledge that lot of members here hav and some achievements they hav done. Appreciate people's suggestions and idea.

tx for everything

Kristi
 
Maybe if you really want a chameleon you could just keep it for a little while and then let it go?
you could always find another one, keep it for awhile, release it, get another, etc.
So, re-cap, illegally take them from the wild, rob them of their natural growth and mess with their learning curves, release them back into the wild, not able to adapt. And then, do that multiple times.

Not a good idea, especially by someone who had no idea what it was a short while ago.
I hav got supplements, bio-vita, which contains vitamins, calsuim and minerals, white powder. But the cham seems not interested. If I ever dust flies with it, the cham does not shoot it.
You have started out keeping chameleons with a wild caught chameleon, the biggest NO-NO that someone could ever make. They are not nearly as adaptable as a captive bred youngling. You do not understand the mindset of a chameleon, let alone a wild specimen. All keepers need to get captive experience under their belts before attempting the risky wild caught keeping.

Here, you say it yourself even, "the chameleon is not interested" in your care. You are offering something that entirely unnatural, to a chameleon who is already accustomed to something else, even though YOU are living in their natural habitat. Outside the walls of your home is everything that little chameleon needs. Yet you are ignorant of what is best for that chameleon.

Letting it go in the future is definitely an option. Breeding with this one is also another option, but only depends on if I can get another one after I can tell the gender of this one. Also, I need to get more knowledge and everything to breed chams. It is a very possible option.
As discussed, letting it go now, is really giving the best possibility of its survival if ever.

Two weeks experience with a specimen that could die any minute... and looking at breeding? And yes it could. It's called failure to acclimate and is fairly common, and even more so with people with no experience.

As far as breeding them anyways, you are taking specimens out of the wild, of a restricted species, taking them away from their potential wild mates, to tinker with them. Consider that the one specimen could have, if left in the wild, gone forth to produce babies up to 4 times a year, and nearly two dozen babies each time. You're not only taking this life from the wild, but hindering the reproduction of countless others. The chameleon knows what to do, you don't.

Seeing vets is not a problem. Equipments and everything is not a problem for me. Only thing if the cham is happy and healthy and it is gonna live and breed. I wont take that right away from the little cham.
Two points here. First, vets can often be useful, but experience chameleon owners know when to tell their vets to step off, you won't. Vets like active treatments, heck way too many of them are going to use the chameleon as their little test tube animal trying out. There a discouraging number of deaths actually cased by vets who are using treatments for reptiles that are far too invasive for chameleons, even unbeknown to them. Also consider that this chameleon is wild caught, and nothing of its history is known.

"Only thing if the cham is happy and healthy". Isn't freedom ultimate happiness? Through the thick and thin times even.
 

roo_71

New Member
Well I certainly like to scoff at the law now and again but what I think you are doing is wrong and you are going to annoy people here by continuing to post threads about this particular cham. You can’t do a better job keeping that cham then mother nature can … no cham keeper can no matter how long they’ve been in the game. I’m also very disappointed with your vet … he/she should have told you it’s illegal to keep it and insist you let it go however I think $$$ was on his/her mind instead of the right path for the cham.

As mentioned before … If I were you, I would focus on a nice backyard environment for the chams, get an uber comfy law chair and poor myself a tall one and enjoy them as they are in the wild. I would so, so do that if I lived where you do and not bother to keep any chams in the house.

-roo
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
You said..."The vet said its not serious, so I guess it is not CANV? What is that anyway?"...unless the vet tested a sample of it he would not know if it was CANV or not. CANV looks like a normal fungus but also produces "pimples" that look like pox...this seems to be the clue that it is CANV....so that's what to watch for.

The dark fungus marks don't bother the chameleon. The chameleon usually acts normally until the end...eats, drinks, etc. CANV, if left untreated by oral antifungal meds, can kill the chameleon though.

CANV is Chrysosporium anamorph of Nannizziopsis vriesii.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9523639&dopt=Abstract

Hopefully your chameleon won't develop any pox!
 
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