Titus - Neurological Issue? PIC HEAVY

mbondy

New Member
Ok so I started a new thread as the other one was so long and hard to keep track of. Here are the pictures I promised of Titus. He really is such a saint, nothing upsets him, he puffed up once as my dog gently pushed him aside. I gave him his calcium and all he wants to do is climb onto my hands. Currently he's eaten a few crickets and had a perfect dropping this morning.

Well here are the pics...

This is pretty typical of him basking or at rest, usually one leg is at least propped up.








This is awful...makes me so sad :( His joints are all so wrong.


And this is how he walks, every step he does this weird rotation with his hind legs.












And his colors are so perfect.
 

carol5208

Chameleon Enthusiast
awe, so sorry to hear about your little guys problems. Bless his heart! I know you went to the vet already. It seems as though he can still thrive without the complete function of his back legs. You would be surpised at animals ways to adapt to situations. Good luck with him and I hope what ever he has goes away on its own somehow.
 

mbondy

New Member
awe, so sorry to hear about your little guys problems. Bless his heart! I know you went to the vet already. It seems as though he can still thrive without the complete function of his back legs. You would be surpised at animals ways to adapt to situations. Good luck with him and I hope what ever he has goes away on its own somehow.

Thanks Carol, yes we've already went to the vet. They gave me some oral calcium to give to him daily for the next few weeks and a fortified calcium cricket gutload. They believe it is neurological so I'm trying to figure out what to do. I don't believe he's suffering so I'm going to re-think how to make his cage safer and easier for him to maneuver around. He does seem pretty content. Thank you for your kind words :)
 

jannb

Chameleon Enthusiast
I don't know where you live but I'd recommend as much natural UVB as you can (outside time). The sun works wonders for these guys. Just don't cook him if you are in a hot climate. You might also try a different vet. One with more experienced with chameleons and get another opinion.
 

lslcronk

New Member
Not trying to suck up or anything but I think I agree with Jann! A second opinion couldn't hurt and the great outdoors and some good ole fashion sunshine might at least make him feel good!:)
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
I just read through your other threads about this guy as well and I'm curious as to why your vet thinks this is not MBD. Did they do bloodwork that said otherwise, or take a radiograph to see bone density? While a neurological problem isn't necessary out of the question, a neurological problem alone will not cause the back legs to bend that way because bones and tendons should still keep in them in the correct alignment regardless of nervous function. There are obvious deformities and the strange way he moves them may be because of a nerve problem, or just because they feel weird and aren't working they way they should due to altered conformation. If you've ever had something stuck to your foot you probably walked funny to try to get it off, and this may be a similar kind of situation. You also mentioned his lip looked unusual when you first got him, like it never grew all the way or something. That is a classic sign of MBD because the jaw doesn't have proper bone density and does not grow appropriately.

I assume you've already filled out the husbandry questionnaire? If not then please do so in case there are easy corrections to be made. There are instances where even in good conditions they can develop MBD for reasons that we don't really understand. It's not common but i know it can happen. Unfortunately it's too soon to tell if the damage is reversible or not. Some of these little guys get around well with significant limb deformities once they learn to compensate.

I would second the recommendation of getting either a second opinion or further diagnostics. In the meantime continue the calcium supplementation for sure and as much real sun as you can!
 

mbondy

New Member
Well my vet didn't think it was MBD due to the fact that he doesn't have a rubbery jaw and no obvious signs of swelling. Of course the only way to tell for sure is to get xrays done. The vet I was going to see was actually on vacation, so I went to see his assistant just to to at least get some calcium. We have taken both pics and videos to send to our state zoo vet that specializes in reptiles, more so chameleons and get his opinion on what to do.

He already has figured out how to move around without using his hind legs. He is very healthy besides his hind legs and quite a character. In terms of husbandry he's in a 16x16x20 screen cage, 60 watt house bulb, 5.0 repti glo tube, temps from 70 to 85 basking, humidity at 70% average.
 

laurie

Retired Moderator
Michele I feel so bad for him. Something is really wrong. When they do xrays I can see if my vet friend could take a look at them for us. My point of view is as long as he can get around and doesn't seem to be in pain, I would not even consider putting him down. It just means more work to find out what is wrong with Titus, but he is worth it.:)
 

mbondy

New Member
ahh poor little guy well what ever you choose do to with him will be the right decision.

Michele I feel so bad for him. Something is really wrong. When they do xrays I can see if my vet friend could take a look at them for us. My point of view is as long as he can get around and doesn't seem to be in pain, I would not even consider putting him down. It just means more work to find out what is wrong with Titus, but he is worth it.:)

That's exactly what I'm thinking, this morning he saw my other guy and have him lots of attitude, he cracks me up. I'm not going to put him to sleep unless I can see he has no more spirit to him. I'm wondering if I could call around and see if someone would be interested in doing some research to try to figure out what is wrong and maybe get some help on vet bills. He's unique alright! ;)
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
Well my vet didn't think it was MBD due to the fact that he doesn't have a rubbery jaw and no obvious signs of swelling.

MBD doesn't usually cause swelling unless it's very advanced and the there are healed fractures where the callous of healing bone can appear as a swelling. Swelling of joints is usually gout - a totally different disease process. And rubber jaw is not the best indicator of MBD either, bent bones (like it appears Titus' back legs) are. Rubber jaw may or may not be present. Just fyi, I'm sure your vet was doing the best they could. A better indicator than even x-rays would be bloodwork because the calcium: phosphorus ratio will be out of balance. That would have been best before you started supplementing calcium but may still be of value if the levels were significantly off and haven't normalized yet. I still highly suspect MBD, especially considering the difference from when he arrived.

I hope the calcium supplementation gets him on the right track and maybe he'll be able to get his legs back in line!
 

mbondy

New Member
MBD doesn't usually cause swelling unless it's very advanced and the there are healed fractures where the callous of healing bone can appear as a swelling. Swelling of joints is usually gout - a totally different disease process. And rubber jaw is not the best indicator of MBD either, bent bones (like it appears Titus' back legs) are. Rubber jaw may or may not be present. Just fyi, I'm sure your vet was doing the best they could. A better indicator than even x-rays would be bloodwork because the calcium: phosphorus ratio will be out of balance. That would have been best before you started supplementing calcium but may still be of value if the levels were significantly off and haven't normalized yet. I still highly suspect MBD, especially considering the difference from when he arrived.

I hope the calcium supplementation gets him on the right track and maybe he'll be able to get his legs back in line!

Thank you, I'll give my vet a call and hopefully get some xrays taken of him by next week.
 

Olimpia

Biologist & Ecologist
I would recommend getting him into a horizontal cage. Build something simple for him if you want, but with those legs I would personally feel better if he had access to less hight and more horizontal space. It is probably easier for him to move forward than up or down, and if he were to take a fall it would be easier on him to fall only a foot than anything more. You can even put down soft rubber matting (like for children's play areas) on the bottom to cushion it but still keep it waterproof and easily washable.

If the cage itself is high up I don't think he would be bothered very much by the lack of height in the cage, as long as he can still move a distance right and left.

This is what I would do. I did it for my rescued crested gecko that had feet issues and constantly fell, even off of the roughest branches. She just couldn't hold on. So she lived in a mainly horizontal environment and she did super well, and actually healed quite a bit. Best of luck with him!
 

ataraxia

Avid Member
very unfortunate. i hope we can figure out the cause and help the poor little guy regain the use. from the pics and age im going with neuro problems also. not ruling out mbd though. going out on a limb...heres some suggestions on possibly helping him out with brain function. these are geared more for humans but worth a shot. id start gutloading with these ingredients and see if it doesnt help.

this was copied and pasted here from a source.

Foods high in antioxidants (healthy chemicals that clean the brain from free radicals that cause cell deterioration) can dramatically reverse memory loss, restore motor coordination and balance. These foods are raisins, berries, apples, grapes, cherries, prunes, and spinach.

Another healthy group of foods contain Omega-3 fatty acids. Omega-3s help improve general brain functioning and restore memory. Foods high in Omega-3 include: salmon, mackerel, sardines, herring, flax oil, and walnuts. **id leave out the fish. if you do decide to i would only try it twice a month.

Multivitamins: A modest dose of a variety of vitamins and minerals is regarded as excellent brain insurance. In several research studies, between one third and one half of school children who took a multivitamin-mineral supplement raised their non-verbal IQ scores as much as 25 points.

Antioxidant supplements: Antioxidants help clean up the brain. To explain we will use an analogy. Antioxidants are like rust cleaners that keep rust off our brain matter. iconVitamin E and C, alpha lipoic acid, grape seed extract, coenzyme Q10 are examples of antioxidants. Children should take half of the recommended adult dosages. Researcher feel adults should take: 400 to 500 IUs of vitamin E, 500 to 1,000 mg vitamin C, 10-50 mg lipoic acid. While there is no established dose of coQ10, for adults, individuals with heart disease or degenerative brain disease should take 100-200 mg. The top 10 foods with antioxidants from most to least are: prunes, raisins, blueberries, blackberries, garlic, cooked kale, cranberries, strawberries, raw spinach, and raspberries.

Omega-3: Omega-3s are found in oil and are believed to create new communication centers in neurons which help brain functioning and mood. Children who fail to get enough omega-3 in their early developmental periods may have lower IQs later in life. Again, Omega-3s are found in tuna fish, salmon, mackerel, sardines, herring, oysters, walnuts, and flax seed oil. Recommended adult dosages are 650 mg a day of Omega-3s (DHA, or docosahexaenoic acid and EPA or eicosapentaenoic acid). The vegetarian form of DHA is specifically recommended for pregnant and lactating women to enhance fetal and infant brain development.

Selenium: This mineral is found in grains, garlic, meat, seafood (oysters, swordfish, tuna) and Brazil nuts. Reportedly, research participants felt clearheaded, elated, confident and energetic when taking 220 micrograms of Selenium daily for three months. It is a good way to naturally elevate our moods.

Vitamin E: Apparently there are two types of vitamin E. Researchers gave a combination of 100 milligrams of alpha tocopherol plus 240 mg. of tocotrienols to adults with severe narrowing of the carotid artery. 40% of these patients were able to avoid heart surgery with this combination of vitamin E. Good blood circulation to the brain means good brain functioning.

Folic Acid: Research suggests that up to 38% of adults diagnosed with depression have low blood levels of folic acid and respond less well to antidepressant drugs. Adding about 400 mcg. of folic acid to a daily diet may help. Low blood levels of folic acid triple one's risk of Alzheimer's disease.

Ginkgo Biloba: Believed to ward off age-related memory loss. It destroys free radicals and increases the circulation of blood and oxygen to the brain. Adults take 240 mg daily.

Phosphatidylserine or PS: Believed to stimulate production of acetylcholine (a neurotransmitter used in memory). Older adults who took 100 mg of PS three times a day for twelve weeks improved on a number of memory and higher learning tests. The worse the deficit, the greater was the improvement.

Chromium: 200 micrograms of chromium a day helps suppress a sharp rise in blood sugar.

The B vitamins: These vitamins are very important for people under much stress. Middle-aged men with the highest blood level of vitamin B6 scored the highest on memory tasks than middle-aged men low in this vitamin. Taking B vitamins improve verbal memory and assists in brain development.


have a few questions also.

where did he come from?
did they properly supplement and have proper lights?

whats your supplement schedule and gutload practices?
kind of lighting?
 

mbondy

New Member
I'm devestated to say that Titus has passed away. This morning I noticed he wasn't eating and was starting to gape and looked extremely uncomfortable. After watching him longer and talking to a member, I realized it was his tongue bone. Titus has cut off his tongue and was now unable to eat, he only had a small stump of tongue left.

With all his issues and no tongue the most humane thing to do was put him to sleep. I'm completely devestated and beside myself.
 

seanUTD

New Member
You did everything that you could and there was nothing that could have helped except eliminating his pain.. You did the right thing and there is no reason to beat yourself up. Im so sorry for your loss and just know he is at peace and his pain has ended..
 

mbondy

New Member
Thanks Sean, I couldn't believe it this morning when I saw his mouth. It was unbelievable, he already could barely get around...what else could go wrong??

I'm just happy to know that he at least didn't seem to be suffering too much, he was super energetic this morning.
 

Sodbuster

New Member
thats horrible i'm so sorry to hear that. I was really hoping I would hear one of those awesome stories like the movie rudy.
 
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