Swollen front arm wrists? Is this common?

[millsamus]

My female just recently layed her first clutch and I have noticed one of her arms is swollen at the base right where the fingers start to split. I hope to post a pic soon is this is something to worry about.


Anyone ever see or hear this happen?

Was this because she dug in the sand for 4 hours!?

Thanks all!

UPDATE pics added!!!

 

[Elizadolots]

Hi! Welcome and congratulations on getting your lady through her first clutch.

I think you might want to fill out the "How to Ask For Help" form.

Just copy that and paste it into a reply, add your information.

Please do try to get a picture. That will help so much.

 

[fluxlizard]

I have seen it happen - it is one big reason I do not use sand any longer.

Damp sand is abrasive and an excellent home for bacteria.

Any time a lizard digs in damp sand, any small puncture or abrasion invites bacteria into her body. Once inside- it typically will attack the joints on the digging arm- especially the "wrist).

But it gets much worse very quickly- it can spread throughout her system and kill her.

IMO you need to get her to a vet immediately for appropriate antibiotics before it has a chance to spread and become much worse and more difficult to treat.

Next time, instead of sand, mixing the sand with roughly equal parts peat which has some antibacterial properties may help, or you can do what I have done for many years now for my lizards and that is use garden soil. When I have a female about ready to lay, I go dig up fresh dirt from the yard. The scent and texture is natural and it is not abrasive, and at least where I live, the water content is always fine for lizard eggs. The lizards respond *really* well to it compared to sand.

No chameleon that I am aware of lays eggs on the beach in sand...

-- I don't know for sure that this is what happened with your female, I suppose it could also be something else and just happened to manifest at this time, but it is highly likely and either way you are much better off getting professional help from a qualified vet, especially because of the very significant risk if this is a bacterial infection...

--- Oh, and 4 hours isn't bad for digging. I've had first time females dig for a couple of days before they figured things out. Usually it takes a few hours.

 

[millsamus]

I have seen it happen - it is one big reason I do not use sand any longer.

Damp sand is abrasive and an excellent home for bacteria.

Any time a lizard digs in damp sand, any small puncture or abrasion invites bacteria into her body. Once inside- it typically will attack the joints on the digging arm- especially the "wrist).

But it gets much worse very quickly- it can spread throughout her system and kill her.

IMO you need to get her to a vet immediately for appropriate antibiotics before it has a chance to spread and become much worse and more difficult to treat.

Next time, instead of sand, mixing the sand with roughly equal parts peat which has some antibacterial properties may help, or you can do what I have done for many years now for my lizards and that is use garden soil. When I have a female about ready to lay, I go dig up fresh dirt from the yard. The scent and texture is natural and it is not abrasive, and at least where I live, the water content is always fine for lizard eggs. The lizards respond *really* well to it compared to sand.

No chameleon that I am aware of lays eggs on the beach in sand...

-- I don't know for sure that this is what happened with your female, I suppose it could also be something else and just happened to manifest at this time, but it is highly likely and either way you are much better off getting professional help from a qualified vet, especially because of the very significant risk if this is a bacterial infection...

--- Oh, and 4 hours isn't bad for digging. I've had first time females dig for a couple of days before they figured things out. Usually it takes a few hours.

Wow great thanks for the tip! Sadly a veiled cham is not worth the price of a Vet to me. Don't even have the money for myself for a doctor.

Good Advise on the dirt suggestion. Thing is I only made the sand wet that night before I put her in it, so its not like the sand had a chance to grow bacteria.

 

[MagicEngineer]

I put her in it, so its not like the sand had a chance to grow bacteria.

Bacteria is everywhere. It can lie dormant for years. It doesn't require moisture to be in the sand, only to flourish and grow.

 

[DekuScrub]

Bacteria is everywhere. It can lie dormant for years. It doesn't require moisture to be in the sand, only to flourish and grow.

^^
agreed.

if you cant afford a vet visit you may want to consider asking for a hand out from one. some vets with little experience with herps will charge little to nothing for the chance to work with a reptile.

when my savannah ate a screw the vet charged me $900 for the opperation and that was just for materials, he was initially trying to charge me $1400. so they can and will go lax on the price when they realize you cant afford it.

how bad is the swelling? is it under the nails? at the joints? or at the wrist? make sure they stay on the dry side.

ive seen a tad of swelling from cage climbers and gravid females picking at the screen instead of digging holes like good girls. (thats why i use the trashcan method with gravids now) keep an eye on it, if the swelling gets worse id seriously consider getting a vet to look at her for free/cheap.

the swelling should go down soon though. just make sure you dont wait too long before doing something about it.

if that dosnt work out id give her to someone that can afford it, that way shes not your dead lizard, shes someone live lizard.

 

[MagicEngineer]

I'm curious if a simple anti-bacterial ointment would help? Would something like Bacitracin be harmful to a cham?

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."one of her arms is swollen at the base right where the fingers start to split"...so not the arm but rather the hand/foot??
Is she missing any claws?

Here we go again...sand is inorganic and does not support bacterial growth according to several articles I've read...
http://www.thedairysite.com/articles/1481/sand-for-bedding-and-the-dangers-of-mastitis
http://www.thedairysite.com/articles/1481/sand-for-bedding-and-the-dangers-of-mastitis
http://www.nmconline.org/articles/riskfactors.htm

 

[millsamus]

You said..."one of her arms is swollen at the base right where the fingers start to split"...so not the arm but rather the hand/foot??
Is she missing any claws?

Here we go again...sand is inorganic and does not support bacterial growth according to several articles I've read...
http://www.thedairysite.com/articles/1481/sand-for-bedding-and-the-dangers-of-mastitis
http://www.thedairysite.com/articles/1481/sand-for-bedding-and-the-dangers-of-mastitis
http://www.nmconline.org/articles/riskfactors.htm

Yea missing a nail on each arm. She was wall climbing while I was away and later i saw a nail aiming upside down! I had to trim it is was clearly bad.

*****Good research for the bacteria on sand**** I only use sand because chamfourms reccomend it!



PICTURES ADDED IN FIRST POST************

 

[MagicEngineer]

Here we go again...sand is inorganic and does not support bacterial growth according to several articles I've read...

You are correct in saying that inorganic material cannot support bacterial growth. However, that does not mean that it cannot contain dormant bacteria. Otherwise doctors would not have to sterilize their inorganic surgical tools. Unless you know for sure that that sand has been heated to a high enough temperature to kill all bacteria, it can be assumed that a trace amount of bacteria can be lying in wait for an organic host (like a scratched chameleon) to come along and supply them with a new home. I'm not saying that this is what happened, only that it could.

 

[fluxlizard]

Here we go again...sand is inorganic and does not support bacterial growth according to several articles I've read...

All I can tell you is that I have seen a beautiful perfectly healthy female iguana become infected from a sand substrate myself when she was laying. I made the mistake of clipping her sharp nails that day prior to laying so she would not cut her eggs accidentally as had happened previously. She was a bit of a handful and a couple of nails I accidentally cut a little too short and they bled. I clipped her nails, filled her box with a few hundred pounds of playsand fresh from the store, added enough water to dampen it. And she was in digging a few hours later. Within hours of finishing, she had swelling manifest. Bacteria had entered through the clipped nails. 72 hours later she was gone.

Ideally playsand should be clean. It is advertised that way. But I can tell you from washing playsand from the bag to use with fish that bits of wood and dirt are often in there with the sand, and God knows what else is in there.

Anyone with experience with filtration systems can tell you that sand is used precisely because it is the ideal bed for bacterial growth.

Whitman has done studies, including one in 2003 that found bacteria levels in sand at a freshwater beach in Chicago averaged up to 10 times that of the swimming water. The city replaced the contaminated sand — but within two weeks, the bacteria level was similar to that before the sand was changed.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/destinations/2005-07-21-bacteria-beaches_x.htm

The study in the American Journal of Epidemiology surveyed beachgoers and found that people who buried themselves in the sand or built sandcastles were more likely to expose themselves to harmful bacteria than those who went swimming on the same beaches.

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/top_three/article_f7fc3d3c-7591-11de-9d59-001cc4c002e0.html

We found very high concentrations of bacteria in the dry sand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjuNaxfXCiw

U.S. scientists say bacteria forcing the closure of many beaches may not be coming from people, animals, or sewage -- but might be produced in the sand.

http://www.physorg.com/news70816835.html

 

[fluxlizard]

A little sidetrack, but interesting and kind of humorous when I was searching about bacteria and sand:

Roads made of sand and bacteria instead of oil

http://inhabitat.com/creating-roads-from-sand-and-bacteria-instead-of-oil/

Bricks made of urine, bacteria and sand

http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2010-05/new-bio-manufactured-bricks-made-bacteria-sand-and-urine

 

[millsamus]

hmm thanks interesting reading material!

 

[kinyonga]

If there is any organic material mixed in with the sand then there will be bacteria there. Beach sand would have organic material mixed in with it.

Did you sterilize whatever you used to clip the nails with? Did your iguana walk on anything that could have had bacteria in/on it??

I agree that wild chameleons would not likely lay eggs is sand, but we are not keeping them in the wild.

Surgical instruments would have organic material on them and the surgeons have to ensure that it is all removed.

 

[millsamus]

If there is any organic material mixed in with the sand then there will be bacteria there. Beach sand would have organic material mixed in with it.

Did you sterilize whatever you used to clip the nails with? Did your iguana walk on anything that could have had bacteria in/on it??

I agree that wild chameleons would not likely lay eggs is sand, but we are not keeping them in the wild.

Surgical instruments would have organic material on them and the surgeons have to ensure that it is all removed.

only trimmed the sharp ends off her nails, used my nail clipper

 

[fluxlizard]

Did you sterilize whatever you used to clip the nails with? Did your iguana walk on anything that could have had bacteria in/on it??

No I did not sterilize and human toenail clippers reserved for that purpose were used.

And yes- bacteria is all around us. The iguana wouldn't even have had to walk on anything- bacteria lives ON all of us.

So lets say it wasn't the sand.

Lets say the sand was clean at purchase and free of organic material and bacteria.

Now lets say a lizard begins to dig in damp sand which is abrasive.

Any small abrasion or cut or nick still allows the bacteria already present on the skin of the lizard into that wound. Or my case- digging re-opened those nails.

Of course making the scenario play out like this so the sand isn't at fault is also not unlike winning the lottery. I've clipped zillions of iguana nails in the past 30 years (and other lizards) and not once have I seen infection as the result. And I've seen many lizards with small injuries that didn't go on to result in systematic bacterial infections. And then there is the flipside that this *just happened* to occur within hours of laying...

Not all sand is sterile or free of organic material at purchase- it is surprising what floats up if you take a bag and cut it open into a bucket and stir in water to rinse it. And I've seen algea growing in unopened bags at the hardware lot.

What about those keepers here on the forums who are advised to keep a nesting box of damp sand in their virgin female enclosures so they are ready to go whenever they feel the need to lay, week after week- do you think organic matter does not get into that sand?

I agree that wild chameleons would not likely lay eggs is sand, but we are not keeping them in the wild.

Acknowledged, but pointless.

We could also say-

I agree that wild chameleons would not likely live on a diet solely of mealworms, but we are not keeping them in the wild.

But in this case what we should say-

Not only are they not likely to lay eggs in sand in the wild, they likely *never* lay eggs in sand in the wild.

All I'm saying is that likely the use of sand had something to do with this problem and I personally choose not to use sand and this is the reasoning why.

If others want to use sand- it is their choice for their animals, and it is used successfully with healthy results zillions of times.

But I choose not to do so for the reasons stated.

I'm bowing out of this because we have now officially become sidetracked into sand vs no sand.

This thread was for the OP asking what action could be taken for her lizard.

I gave my opinion about the cause and what should be done.

If you have a different opinion about the cause and what should be done, then maybe that would be more useful than the opinion I have given to the OP.

 

[lslcronk]

Wow great thanks for the tip! Sadly a veiled cham is not worth the price of a Vet to me. Don't even have the money for myself for a doctor.
Good Advise on the dirt suggestion. Thing is I only made the sand wet that night before I put her in it, so its not like the sand had a chance to grow bacteria.

Sadly IMO you should find someone who can properly care for her at this point. She needs a vet and most likely systemic antibiotics at this point. Regardless of all this sand non-sense your cham needs medical attention whether you feel her life is "worth" the money to you or not. I am not trying to be rude, but I strongly believe that if a person takes an animal into thier care for any reason, that person has an obligation to that animal to care for it the best way they can. Letting this animal suffer and possibly die is simply unexceptable, period. If you don't have money to care for her, you need to find someone who will. Expecting a vet to give you free care and free medication is not a realistic option, yay to those who have gotten lucky...but really, if the vet is so inexperienced with reptiles that they are willing to treat one for free for the "fun" of it is that really what you want??

 

[millsamus]

Sadly IMO you should find someone who can properly care for her at this point. She needs a vet and most likely systemic antibiotics at this point. Regardless of all this sand non-sense your cham needs medical attention whether you feel her life is "worth" the money to you or not. I am not trying to be rude, but I strongly believe that if a person takes an animal into thier care for any reason, that person has an obligation to that animal to care for it the best way they can. Letting this animal suffer and possibly die is simply unexceptable, period. If you don't have money to care for her, you need to find someone who will. Expecting a vet to give you free care and free medication is not a realistic option, yay to those who have gotten lucky...but really, if the vet is so inexperienced with reptiles that they are willing to treat one for free for the "fun" of it is that really what you want??

I'm not one of those ppl. My setup and care is prob better then 90% of everyone else's care on this site. So I don't need the negativity. I am here asking help because I am obviously concerned. I politely am not asking for back slaps.

I work with Pharmacist's every day and push pills. I already have gotten a "professional" opinion.

I for one, am not someone to spend $500 to a few grand for a "pet." Although the price of the "pet" also has a lot of influence. My cham is wild from petsmart for a value of $60. It already has long lived any other owner in my area + the pet store life. May sound evil or wrong, but we all have price point we will only meet. Would give your cat a open heart surgery for $2,300? NO.

When I graduate to a better owner and can afford more for better care I plan to to towards a panther or better.

Back to the point, Still Looking for valid suggestions from anyone with experience.

 

[jpm995]

Just kill it. Why waste any money on a sick animal?

 

[Tetsuo]

I'm not one of those ppl. My setup and care is prob better then 90% of everyone else's care on this site. So I don't need the negativity. I am here asking help because I am obviously concerned. I politely am not asking for back slaps.

I work with Pharmacist's every day and push pills. I already have gotten a "professional" opinion.

I for one, am not someone to spend $500 to a few grand for a "pet." Although the price of the "pet" also has a lot of influence. My cham is wild from petsmart for a value of $60. It already has long lived any other owner in my area + the pet store life. May sound evil or wrong, but we all have price point we will only meet. Would give your cat a open heart surgery for $2,300? NO.

When I graduate to a better owner and can afford more for better care I plan to to towards a panther or better.

Back to the point, Still Looking for valid suggestions from anyone with experience.

Where I live taking a veiled to the vet for an examination is only around $50-$60 plus the medication and other exams that may be needed. If you will not give her the medical treatment that she needs I strongly agree with lslcronk. In my opinion you should let someone else take her so they can provide her with the medical care she needs or have someone foster her for you. Jpm995 that was a pretty Shi**y thing to say to be honest. One you wont be wasting money saving an animals life and two spending money on an animals vet bills isn't any different then spending money on hospital bills. What makes a human life worth any more than an animals?