Sunken eyes Gaping Bloody Prolapse

[DanSB]

Your Chameleon -
The species Ch. africanus
sex, Female
age 3 / 4 months?
How long has it been in your care? 2 weeks
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? Never
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? Small Crickets & Dubias
What amount? offer 12-20 daily
What is the schedule? Daily
How are you gut-loading your feeders? Bug Burger, carrots, orange rind lettuce
Supplements -
What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? Reptivite daily
Watering -
What kind of watering technique do you use? Exo Terra spray pump bottle How often and how long to you mist? 30 seconds to a minute 3 to 4 times a day depending on humidity, was once a day from friday the 5th until tuesday the 9th (october) will explain below
Do you see your chameleon drinking? Yes
Fecal Description - Dark with white tip starting to get orangish where white meets dark brown, not runny
Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? No
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. This is from the current batch at a popular retailer, I don't believe it has anything to do with them so will not name them out of respect.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - 16 x 16 x 30 screen
Lighting - 5.0 CFL and incandescent monitored daily between 40 and 75 at varying heights to keep basking branch 85 to 90 degrees
Temperature -
What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? 85 - 90 Degrees F to 75 degrees F
Lowest overnight temp? 65 degrees F
How do you measure these temps? Zoo med analog thermometer
Humidity -
What are your humidity levels? between 40 and 80
How are you creating and maintaining these levels? Misting and live plants What do you use to measure humidity? Zoo Med hydrometer
Plants - Are you using live plants? Pothos and Ficus Benjamina
Placement -
Where is your cage located? Hung up on a wall so the top is 7 feet off the ground
Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? Ceiling fan on only at low in evening, AC vent is near but doesn't blow direct traffic is moderate to low the family room is almost never used
At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? 7 feet
Location -
Where are you geographically located? Sacramento Ca

Current Problem - There are 2 chameleons I purchased at the same time a male and female 3 to 4 months old in same cage. Male is obviously stressed so am moving this weekend. (was planning to separate whole time anyway).

The female is bigger and looked much more alert and happy until yesterday when my wife noted she was gaping a lot. Temps were fine, so I assumed she was dehydrated as her eyes also looked sunken when I got home and they were being watched by a family member when we had to leave town for a week. The family member apparently thought I said mist once per day. When I picked them up they both looked fine and only a little orange in stool still mostly white. I moved them back home on tuesday. Wednesday they were fine, thursday the female was Gaping with slightly sunken eyes, she looked much better this morning before I left and drank a lot.

When I got home she was lower in the cage gaping with eyes closed then, I tried to see if any vet was open (no luck) so began to look for help here for suggestions, then she had a bleeding prolapse and was climbing up the side of the cage. It was bleeding and she fell to the bottom of the cage and promptly died as I was typing this...

Damn...

She had looked really healthy and strong up until yesterday which is why I had assumed she was just a little dehydrated until I got home tonight.

What did I do wrong and does this sound like something I should be concerned about the boy? Note he is already small and had been stressed by her presence and came nowhere near her.

 

[Rango183]

Dam so sorry

 

[Seeco]

Ask the babysitter...

 

[Eltortu]

Try a long shower to rehydrating and get some silk/hornworms for food. I lost a bunch of baby chameleons when my pettsiter bailed on me without letting me know...

 

[Dr O]

What did I do wrong and does this sound like something I should be concerned about the boy? Note he is already small and had been stressed by her presence and came nowhere near her.

I can't see anything you did wrong that would cause death, so I hope you can rest easier on your conscience.

sunken eyes and gaping are obviously a stressed and sick cham. by themselves that don't mean much, but the prolapse at her age is unusual and makes me think about parasites. certainly if they have some and the stress was too high, that could put them over the edge. and my suspicion would not be worms (and she was probably dewormed at the shop with Panacur), but one celled organisms like coccidia, giardia, or cryptosporidium. they don't have to have raging diarrhea; a sub-clinical infection and high stress can easily be a fatal combination. I specifically mention this due to the male and your concern of if there is a contagion.

you have a vet; drop off a fecal. but make sure they're not only doing a "float", it also needs a "direct" saline smear to see the organisms I'm talking about. it's an extra test herp vets do on reptiles consistently, whereas it would be less common to do it on a mammal. if you want the absolute best answer (fecal tests can often be incorrect), then have them send it to their lab for a reptile fecal and it will get the works.

sorry for your loss in a big way. assuming they were WC, this could explain the signs and also mean your boy could have issues. but I would still be testing fecals on any prolapse in a young cham, CBB or WC. let me know if you wind up doing this and the results, and good luck.

dr o—

 

[Dr O]

and I don't want to be morbid, but her fecal could certainly be tested as well if her body is available. the body would need refrigeration, and a fecal under that circumstance should be done ASAP for several reasons.

 

[DanSB]

I can't see anything you did wrong that would cause death, so I hope you can rest easier on your conscience.

sunken eyes and gaping are obviously a stressed and sick cham. by themselves that don't mean much, but the prolapse at her age is unusual and makes me think about parasites. certainly if they have some and the stress was too high, that could put them over the edge. and my suspicion would not be worms (and she was probably dewormed at the shop with Panacur), but one celled organisms like coccidia, giardia, or cryptosporidium. they don't have to have raging diarrhea; a sub-clinical infection and high stress can easily be a fatal combination. I specifically mention this due to the male and your concern of if there is a contagion.

you have a vet; drop off a fecal. but make sure they're not only doing a "float", it also needs a "direct" saline smear to see the organisms I'm talking about. it's an extra test herp vets do on reptiles consistently, whereas it would be less common to do it on a mammal. if you want the absolute best answer (fecal tests can often be incorrect), then have them send it to their lab for a reptile fecal and it will get the works.

sorry for your loss in a big way. assuming they were WC, this could explain the signs and also mean your boy could have issues. but I would still be testing fecals on any prolapse in a young cham, CBB or WC. let me know if you wind up doing this and the results, and good luck.

dr o—

I appreciate your weighing in here! Thank you

It is my understanding these are all captive hatched and I tend to believe it. Would a captive hatched animal have exposure to the same parasites as their parents were WC?

As an update on her condition everything went back inside before she died and left lots of blood around the vent. The actual prolapse looked like bloody hamburger of some sort and nothing like any prolapse I have ever seen.

I will not likely get her fecal done mainly because the two were in the cage together and I am not positive who's fecal was whose but will definitely get the male's fecal done when he leaves a fresh one and I find a Vet to do it in the area.

Would it be worthwhile to contact the seller as they have others that were housed together with these two? Under the assumption that if it was a single celled issue it would have been seen in others?

 

[Kate]

So sorry for your loss Dan. Hope you can get some answers. I sounds as if there could have been a problem before you got her.

 

[Elizadolots]

I'm so sorry. I agree with Kate, it sounds like something that had nothing to do with your care.

 

[Dr O]

I appreciate your weighing in here! Thank you

It is my understanding these are all captive hatched and I tend to believe it. Would a captive hatched animal have exposure to the same parasites as their parents were WC?

Would it be worthwhile to contact the seller as they have others that were housed together with these two? Under the assumption that if it was a single celled issue it would have been seen in others?

CH or not, many reptiles still get parasites from the environment or diet. I'm currently working with a pet shop that has had a likely outbreak of OPMV that is killing their ball pythons. any pet shop will have outbreaks of something or another at some point. the owner had also done a test once by buying crickets from several vendors, grinding them and running fecals floats. most of the crickets were all full of coccidia. so there's two examples of how something can still go awry in a pet shop situation.

if a fecal comes back positive, I would definitely contact them as an FYI and maybe some reimbursement. otherwise I don't think there is much point to contacting them other than letting them know what happened. you never know if they may have already received other complaints.

 

[Lovereps]

DanSB so sorry about your poor little cham.
As Seeco implied, maybe something happened while you were away and that you'll never know about.
Maybe they sprayed for bugs, etc.


The only thing that concerned me in your care is the use of Reptivite every day. That's way too often.
Daily phosphorus-free calcium w/o any D3 is ok but not daily multivitamins.

Here is a typical supplementation schedule:
Calcium without D3 every day
Calcium with D3 twice a month
Multi vit. without D3 once or twice a month

 

[DanSB]

DanSB so sorry about your poor little cham.
As Seeco implied, maybe something happened while you were away and that you'll never know about.
Maybe they sprayed for bugs, etc.


The only thing that concerned me in your care is the use of Reptivite every day. That's way too often.
Daily phosphorus-free calcium w/o any D3 is ok but not daily multivitamins.

Here is a typical supplementation schedule:
Calcium without D3 every day
Calcium with D3 twice a month
Multi vit. without D3 once or twice a month

I checked and they DID spray for bugs but only outside and not by the room, I wouldn't rule that out as a possibility now though. The female is bigger, was near the top of the cage more, ate more and drank more.

I wonder if the symptoms could have been caused by a bug spray. Apparently all the crickets I left did die and now I am wondering if there might have somehow been a trace amount of toxin that made it's way through the air vents into the room they were in.

Nothing else seemed odd and I contacted the vendor to see if anyone else has had any problems.

I won't be able to get a fecal done on the male until next week. I've got a nasty cold and fell asleep when everyone is still opened.

As far as the supplement schedule... what I am doing is ofcourse not ideal. Ideal is NO supplements at all and a varied and well gut loaded diet along with plenty of natural sunlight.

As far as what is good for supplements what I am using is an all in one and is meant for daily use with lower levels of D3 that you would find in a regular Calcium with D3 plus who actually knows how much is good for africanus? Other than "Care for like a Veiled" there is very little info. Care for like a veiled can't be 100% correct as they are not Veileds and come from different habitats...

I hope to pick up a few more once I am sure there is no nasty disease in the house and try to figure out exactly how to care for them. The only good article I could find is for the Greek variant which may or may not require similar care...

 

[pssh]

Thats so sad! Im sorry you lost her and that she had to die like that! It sounds awful. I would definitely contact the seller just in case, especially if the male comes back positive! A good breeder would at least try to help you figure it out (and maybe give you a refund/replacement/credit.)

 

[Dr O]

depending in the insecticide, some chemicals would cause the side effect of heavy intestinal contractions which could lead to a prolapse as well. if a fecal is negative, then toxin is certainly a possibility.

 

[squeekz1992]

I'm so sorry about your girl... I certainly wish you the best with the male. Again, I'm sorry

 

[phylicia]

Dansb

VERY SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS..HOPEULLY your male will be fine..Dont hold yourself responsible..Your caring means most!

 

[Lovereps]

As far as what is good for supplements what I am using is an all in one and is meant for daily use with lower levels of D3 that you would find in a regular Calcium with D3 plus who actually knows how much is good for africanus? Other than "Care for like a Veiled" there is very little info. Care for like a veiled can't be 100% correct as they are not Veileds and come from different habitats...

You said Reptivite--did you mean Repashy Calcium Plus or is it Reptivite?
I don't know if I would trust the manufacturer's recommendation on the Repashy Calcium Plus, since it is a general recommendation not one specific to chams. I looked at my calcium w/D3 and it only has twice the D3 of Repashy "for daily dusting". Seems like way too much D3 for a chameleon.

 

[jannb]

Dan, that is so very sad. I am so sorry for your loss and that you had to go through that.

 

[DanSB]

Thank you to everyone for your kind words and advice.

I really love this species, they are super cool and have great personalities. No horns, giant casques or bright colors is easily made up for in the overall package and coolness of these guys.

I want to start a a breeding project and it is important to me to really make sure I have husbandry down right and losing one so quickly was kind of a slap.

The male is doing really good I need to get a camera and get pictures but frankly he is a scrawny little guy with the dullest imaginable color and about as photogenic as a twig. ha haa I'm not overly concerned about the mainly brown color as there is no black or spotting that tends to indicate stress in Chamaeleo species.

I am keeping a close eye and will get him checked for bugs next week. Once I am certain he is clean (probably 2 screenings 2 weeks apart I'll be in the market for another female, probably 2).

 

[DanSB]

Well my plan was to bring a fecal in on Friday (Tomorrow) when I had the extra money to cover it. Things were a bit tight this last week and the male was eating well and moving around fantastically so I had no worries.

I left for work yesterday morning, fed him before I left and he moved around and ate, looked good, poops were white where they are supposed to be and brown where there were supposed to be. No problems with sunken eyes, gaping, closed eyes, or lethargy.

My wife called me around 4 PM saying he was at the bottom of the cage gaping and he was gone by the time I got home at 6 PM 2 hours later. Environment is exactly as described earlier. There was no prolapse or anal bleeding this time, no sunken eyes, not dehydrated, not sleeping during the day, only gaping for the last few hours of his life which I missed and couldn't get home any earlier than I did.

Also the plants all have larger river rocks in them so he could no access the dirt (which was ground coconut husk over organic potting soil) and the feeders were all a little smaller than they needed to be.

I do not intend to have a postmortem test and will simply sterilize everything they were in contact with to be on the safe side.

There are many possible causes but the most probable is a parasite load that was probably acquired before I got them. If this is the case I am not going to pay to have a test done when I have no other effected animals. I will not be getting another chameleon for awhile. Likely a year or so, but ya'll won't get off that easy I still love them and will be hanging out around here learning everything I can and trying to improve my knowledge before I move on.