sumthin wrongh here-uh

Discussion in 'Chameleon Breeding' started by reyesjoshuacruz, Nov 5, 2008.

  1. reyesjoshuacruz

    reyesjoshuacruz Established Member

    dur........ iffin f. paradlis highbirds be are stare-ill, how come why for are dare animals be sold as having jeans from moor dan too locales??????

    me no unastands??????ioamsdofmnisdopnasdfjgnasdfj\

    but seriously though. ( im guessing not all crossing end in sterile offspring, just the major. )
  2. summoner12

    summoner12 Avid Member

    me no understands you:confused::confused:
  3. boothy

    boothy New Member

    ahahah me either
  4. chameleon97

    chameleon97 New Member

    unfortunately, julkj hggf tyyty. dare animals as having jeans pencil sharpener moook moooo colourful dirt. hybrid cars world peace war cham oogoola leaves guitar stick. obama mccain harper dion co2 old people. Me no understans?
  5. reyesjoshuacruz

    reyesjoshuacruz Established Member

    lol hahahaha

    ok so if paradalis hybrids are sterile, why do we see hybrids listed as containing genes from more then two locales>?

    IE: cross sambava with tamatave = sterile how can you cross again?

    how can there be a panther with genes from three diff locales?

    ( im guessing its only cause not all crossing ends in sterile off spring )
  6. summoner12

    summoner12 Avid Member

    That would be my conclusion.
  7. reyesjoshuacruz

    reyesjoshuacruz Established Member

    call me crazy but for some reason i remember ( maybe going back to when i was first getting into the hobby ) that ALL crosses were sterile.
  8. ciafardo 4

    ciafardo 4 New Member

    i was not aware that crossing locales resulted in sterile offspring why would it
    Brad likes this.
  9. summoner12

    summoner12 Avid Member

    I think that is wrong but I don't have personal experience with them
  10. reyesjoshuacruz

    reyesjoshuacruz Established Member

    well crossing anything for the most part results in genetic consequences, one of which is being sterile

    horse and donkey = sterile mule

    lion + tiger = sterile liger

    like i said call me crazy, i could totally be wrong, but for some reason i thought that was the general understanding........i have been totally wrong before :)
  11. They are the same species, why would they be sterile???
    Where did you here that?
    Likely a myth to keep locales pure, and keep people from cross breeding.
    Brad likes this.
  12. reyesjoshuacruz

    reyesjoshuacruz Established Member

    well ......

  13. dodolah

    dodolah Retired Moderator

    as far as panthers (furcifer pardalis) goes, I think there should not be a problem we find when we cross horse and a donkey.
    After all, like Justin said, in the eye of science, they are all 1 species (just different coloration).

    An old thread talked about this before.
    I brought up an analogy of interracial marriage in homo sapiens.

    Scientifically speaking, as far as I know, we are all 1 species no matter the skin coloration. Thus, our children can reproduce with no problem as well.

    But again, I am not a scientist here.
    Others who are might have a say about this in depth.

    The word "anecdotal" is used on the last quote you post.
    So, i took it with a grain of salt. If you can successfully cross panther and veiled (rolling my eyes here), then you might face that sterile off springs dilemma.
  14. Chameleon Company

    Chameleon Company Avid Member

    This topic has been discussed off and on in the past. Our experience has been that fertility rates reduce more quickly in F-2 and F-3 hybrid generations than in locale pure F-2 and F-3 generations. Others have shared similar conclusions with us. Same species ? Yes. Exact same genetically ? No. I have not seen a discussion before where someone who had hands-on knowledge said they believed hybrids were sterile.
  15. And to add to the discussion/confusion...

    some mules are not sterile. some ligers are not sterile. it "depends".

    I've heard certain locales of pardalis are more different than others, and cannot produce fertile offspring with other locales.

    If they are the same species, as many of the locales clearly are, then the only "ethical" problem would be, in MY opinion, a problem of business ethics. How do you know for sure what you're getting is "pure".

    Then again, if they're the same species, what the heck is "pure" in the first place?

    Fact is, most crosses (of pardalis) are not as nice as the original locales. But, if you take these crosses, you mix genetic material, you mix phenotypes. Using selective breeding, you have given yourself a greater color pallate to "choose" from.

    ...and with that, you are able to produce things like THIS:
    this is one of the Kammer's guys, on their webpage.

    Now that is one of the best looking lizards I've ever seen.
  16. reyesjoshuacruz

    reyesjoshuacruz Established Member

    ok, thats more along the lines of what i remember reading about. so im not crazy i did hear this at one time.

    Thanks jim, as always its refreshing to see such an experienced individual happy to share information.

    ( off topic, but by the way I think its pretty clear to anyone that has talked to you and............ someone else :) that profit and status maybe even jealousy are the driving factors )
  17. Certainly. It may not be outright greed or desire for profit alone, but it's there. Panthers used to be cheaper than veileds. USed to be, you didn't knwo what you were getting in a CB panther.

    Now, breeders are held to a higher standard (thank god), and people demand a degree of consistency. The price changes accordingly. you want a solid blue lizard, you pay $250.00.

    You want a cross of a soild blue lizard with a red and blue lizard? Can't be sure it'll not look like crap - might be red and blue and blue and red...might be dull gray... so most people arent' willing to pay $300 for something that is probably not going to look very nice. So, most people dont' want crosses. SO, there' slittle market for them.

    As far as the breeder is concerned, their desire to keep bloodlines pure from an ecological stance is directly related to their deisre to maximise profits.
    they go hand in hand.

    and there's nothing wrong with it.

    i also happen to feel there's nothing wrong with locale crosses. It's a bigger risk, for the breeder, but it has great potential payoff, in the long term.

    I also think it important that the pure locales be maintained. Hard to do with females.
  18. dodolah

    dodolah Retired Moderator

    nicely said, Eric and Jim :)
  19. Dsignrguy

    Dsignrguy Member

    nevermind, already covered
    #19 Dsignrguy, Nov 5, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2008

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