Rescued two veileds tonight- opinions? please read

[kenya]

Hey guys, I ended up with two female veileds tonight, each from a different source. One is not as bad as I thought she might be, the other is worse and possibly very, very eggbound.

Veiled one:

3.5 years old

no supplements ever used

No UVB- had a ceramic heat emitter about a foot away from the cage on the side- I don't think it raised the temp at all and there were no thermometers in the cage

Housed in a very large birdcage with one biovine and several ornaments on the bottom (plastic white tiger toys :S )

will not shoot tongue (for past ~2 years)

fed mealworms and snowpeas as main food sources-basically force fed- the owner would slip the pea in and get her to chew and then would put mealworms into her mouth while she chewed

never misted- drank from kitchen sink twice a week or so
suspected vitamin A deficiency (she has one eye scarred over with barely a slit open, squishes it often and it has a little bump on the top of the eyelid and the other eye does not seem to focus at all)

Misshapen back but no obvious signs of bad MBD- legs slightly curvy around the elbows though

Large burn over entire side of body- apparently happened a year or two ago- I am surprised it didn't kill her.

Seems very eggbound- large tummy, especially in back, boxy shaped

She seems to have no depth perception or focus and won't hold onto branches. She will sit partially on a branch and flail a leg or two around aimlessly or let a leg just hang off the branch while gripping with it's twin.

Her nails are kind of long, very yellow and curved more than other chams I have seen

I have cleaned her cage out completely and rearranged it, adding more fake plants, perches, hiding spots, and a large pot of ecoearth mixed with washed sand for laying. I have a regular basking spot and a new Repti-Sun set up for her.

For feeding and supplements:

I was thinking I would give her calcium at every feeding and d3 twice a week for the first month or so. Do you think that would be over doing it? I also will give her preformed vitamin A sometime this week and once every two weeks thereafter until her eyes show improvement. Vitamins will be once a week for now. Opinions?

Here are photos:

cage before cleaning

Her from various angles:

Bad eye:

Good eye:

Burn:

After cage cleaned and set up with what I had tonight:

Her in bottom (I put her in the pot with laying medium as she wouldn't stay on the branches very well):

Veiled two:

This one is not as bad as I thought she would be, especially judging from the photo in her ad. She was hunkered down in the photo, eyes shut, legs looking wobbly, sitting in someones hand and not supporting herself.

She is an adult, unknown age at this point

She has some small robin blue spotting and some large orange spots (does this mean gravid or receptive?) She has super long nails that are very sharp

She has had clutches in the past.

She was being kept in a very small exoterra glass tank without any lights and about four inches of dirt in the bottom. She had some perches and what looked like dead branches with leaves still attached from outside.

She seems to be okay bone wise, has a very strong grip but could use some vitamins and more calcium. She was given crickets dusted with Miner-All with D3 at every feeding.

She seems to have a lot of retained shed here and there.

She is currently in my small schefflera tree until I can borrow and sanitize a reptarium from a friend tomorrow. I have not tried feeding her yet but will supplement with calcium without D3 at every feeding, vitamins once a week for a bit, Vitamin A twice for the month and then once a month (normal) and D3 once a week.

Photos of her:

Before settling in in my tree:

After:

Both chameleons will get some showers and be fed silkies, crickets, roaches, superworms and if I can get them... hornworms. They are both dehydrated to an extent. Both will also get a round of Panacur. I plan on taking them to my vet once I have the cash- it may be a week or so but I think that it will be okay.

Any comments? Ideas?

 

[Julirs]

Wow-chams in such sad shape. You are a good person to rescue. Does the first one's good eye respond to light/movement? It looks as if she could be blind.
Some real sun time I am sure would benefit, but too much D3 is bad-I would not go more than 2X a month on the adults there. Good luck.

 

[kenya]

Wow-chams in such sad shape. You are a good person to rescue. Does the first one's good eye respond to light/movement? It looks as if she could be blind.
Some real sun time I am sure would benefit, but too much D3 is bad-I would not go more than 2X a month on the adults there. Good luck.

She doesn't seem to be blind in either but doesn't focus- you can tell in the photo of her good eye. I won't give her D3 more than twice a month then but we don't have many sunny days this time of year in Oregon.

What do you think about the tongue thing? How can I get her to eat? Do you have any ideas? Also, does she look eggbound to you? How can I feel for eggs? What should I do until I can get her to the vet? and how should I treat her scar? Vitamin E?

Thanks for the reply- I really want to make her well and I think it is doable though she has had a rough life thus far.

 

[summoner12]

Hey! Good luck with these ladies!

As to the sun.... over cast isn't really that bad either. Over cast days are about as intense as a reptisun 10.0 if I'm not mistaken. but.... overcast levels of UVB light are still better quality than light from a reptisun even though the UVB level might be the same.

 

[tryme]

I'm so upset to hear this i've actually got a tear in my eye.

 

[summoner12]

I'm so upset to hear this i've actually got a tear in my eye.

It is very sad knowing people get chams and have NO idea what they are doing. Sure, we aren't born with cham care programmed into our brains.... but some simple logic would be to get some info about an animal you plan to care for.... or not care for

 

[Julirs]

I don't think she looks gravid-some females after laying a few clutches get the saggy back end look. As for the tongue-my fear is that there really isn't much that can be done-it could be permanent damage from the MBD.

 

[beeze]

So sad that someone could let these beautiful creatures get into this condition. They are very lucky to have you to rescue them. The best of luck to you and may you get both of these girls turned around.

 

[BocaJan]

I would say that as soon as you can afford it take #1 to the vet first. She has MBD pretty bad and that back right leg looks either broken or her bone has been absorbed. She may need a calcium injection.

Poor chams. I hope you can bring them to some degree of health. #2 looks pretty rescueable, let's hope there is hope for #1.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Your pictures do in fact show some signs of MBD in the 3.5 year old. It doesn't look to me like she is carrying eggs ... but it is hard to tell from pictures.
Until you can get her to the vet, I would get her on a good supplement schedule with calcium (no D3) on every feeder.
The second animal is showing receptive coloration, not gravid. Keep an eye on her.
I would use forceps to feed number one, and if necessary use the previous owners snow pea technique. Snow peas have some calcium in them, which may have helped her MBD from being even worse than it is.
There used to be a saying in the hobby that anyone could keep a veiled chameleon for a year because that's about how long it takes to kill one.
Girl number one is a great example of how resilient and hardy these animals really are.
She will benefit tremendously from your husbandry.
Good luck with both of them!

-Brad

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Greetings, Nikki. I was wondering if you would get that MBD girl on CL. Glad you did. It was a bit too far a drive for us.

Below is a brief desciption of a similar rescued female cham we have.

We rescued a couple of panther chams in early August. They were housed together and the female was forced to dwell in the bottom area of the cage, deep inside a very leafy plant. She did not have access to UVB or basking. She had a broken mishapen leg, a festered wound on the side of her head, the other side of her casque is slightly crushed, 2 grossly mal-aligned eyes, a cratered scar on her side, weak grip, and could not extend her tongue. Instead of moving her eyes to see she would move her head. Here is the link to the posting:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/sad-tale-2-chameleons-14453/

I should update with new info and photos.

We put her on prescription calcium, and reptile rescue food, and gutloaded crickets. The crickets were also supplemented on a schedule. She was placed in a small cage with lots of horizontal support and short leafy plants for cushion and humidity retention.

We initially fed her by holding her head in one hand and offering food via rubber coated tongs with the other hand. She would site with one eye, and then just flail her head to try to get the food. It brought tears to my eyes. She would get so excited about seeing the food! I would hold it in front of her and eventually she would calm down enough to open her mouth and she would place the front edge of her tongue right by her teeth and I would place the food on her tongue. She could hardly even use her tongue to mash or "chew" so I would have to wait very patiently while she ate, before giving her the next serving. It would take about 20 minutes to feed her 3 crickets (or the equivalent in rescue food). In fact, I think the first few meals we had to force feed her, by us opening her mouth and placing food in it.

She can now shoot her tongue (thought she misses the target), but she cup fed successfully a few weeks ago. It was so taxing for her, however, that I don't make her do it regularly. She can sight food, but has difficulty focusing on a single target. It is still hit or miss. Her grip is strong and she climbs around quite a bit, gripping with all 4 feet. She loves her mister and sits under it very relaxed. She also will come forward in her cage when she "sees" me. Caring for her has been a very gratifying experience.

From my experience I would say it is likely her tongue and eye will improve. Both are likely related to nutritional needs.

Also, we had an older adult female veiled with the long yellowish nails. I think it is a sign of age perhaps.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Hey! Good luck with these ladies!

As to the sun.... over cast isn't really that bad either. Over cast days are about as intense as a reptisun 10.0 if I'm not mistaken. but.... overcast levels of UVB light are still better quality than light from a reptisun even though the UVB level might be the same.

Agreed. We have a UVB meter and I have tested that theory. It is true that overcast skies still allow for good UVB levels at cage level. Shade also allows for good UVB levels. Higher than a UVB bulb emits. A cham doesn't have to be in direct sun to get good strong UVB levels when outdoors.

In fact, we had a cool spell here (temps in the 60s in August) when we brought home the little rescue girl that I just posted about here. So I placed her cage outside, with a basking lamp plugged into an outdoor socket. She got some natural UVB and stayed warm enough, too. We regularly placed her outside to help with her recovery.

 

[kenya]

I don't think she looks gravid-some females after laying a few clutches get the saggy back end look. As for the tongue-my fear is that there really isn't much that can be done-it could be permanent damage from the MBD.

She has never laid and is very large. Like, very rotund.

 

[kenya]

Hey all- I just got home and am beat. I work early in the morning and unfortunately do not have the time right now to reply to everyone directly. I will be back tomorrow and will do my best to reply to every post you have left- I appreciate all the input- please keep it coming! The chams seem to be doing fine- I will try to get them outside when it is not too windy or raining. I am just trying to get them hydrated right now- I will also do this outside with my big pump mister. I am letting them adjust and will try feeding them tomorrow.

In the meantime, any photo requests? Certain angles, close ups, etc? Please let me know if it will help you help me.

Thank you so much again. I really appreciate all of the help and I hope I can do well by these chams and get them healthy.

 

[kenya]

Hey all,

Both girls got some quality time with proper basking and UVB lights today (and yesterday! But alas, no sun here in Portland-just rain and wind). They seem to be doing better than the night I got them even. Veiled 1 was found under her basking bulb this morning, soaking up the heat.

I have been doing pretty well to get them re hydrated- both had some big orange poos (no obvious parasites right now- I will dose with Panacur once they are obviously well enough for it.) It has been somewhat difficult to get them to drink without flooding the cages so I just pop them, cage and all, into my bathtub and mist them with warm water from one of these: http://www.jccarpet.com/janitorial/images/standard.gif

I got both to drink for a while and I really focused on their eyes (especially veiled 1's) to get them to squish around a bit and clean them.

I fed them both for the first time today.

Veiled one at half a snow pea (I had to use it to get her to start eating and then slip the insects in until she crunched them down) 6-7 medium silkworms and something like 5-6 large gutloaded crickets. She got calcium with d3 on three silkworms, vitamins on one cricket, and regular calcium on three crickets. Do you think that is okay for her first feeding? I am trying to get her enough calcium to halt the MBD and hopefully get her back on track and developing bones. Her jaw is rather floppy and you can tell that she has moderate MBD. I haven't given her any preformed vitamin A yet and I think it will be the most important supplement for her at this point because of her eyes. She really seemed to enjoy eating the bugs and I even saw the tip of her tongue a couple of times but it never came up much. She would realize she had the bug in her mouth and then crunch it a bit and gulp it down.

I am going to pop a vitamin E capsule and rub some into her burn, probably about once a week. Does that sound like a good plan?

I plan to get both chams outside as soon as possible- it just needs to quit raining.

One last thing about Thing 1 before we move onto Thing 2. She has a tiny black tip on her tail- necrotic, I presume. I will take some photos and post in a bit. What should I do about it? Antibiotic ointment? Anything? Removal at the vet?

Okay, cham 2 ate 16 total crickets (that is what I get for telling the girlfriend to feed her while I was at work) dusted with calcium today and her tongue is working fine. I plan on cutting her off at about 8 large feeder insects a day and then less once she is in better shape. Does that sound about right or should I let her eat her fill? I just don't want to complicate things with an infertile clutch of eggs since she has already had like...three clutches so far? Two or three, anyway.

Please give me some feedback and let me know if I am doing this correctly. How would you do it? What should I be doing? What should I be looking for?

Thanks guys. I couldn't do this without you and this forum.

 

[kenya]

Greetings, Nikki. I was wondering if you would get that MBD girl on CL. Glad you did. It was a bit too far a drive for us.

Below is a brief desciption of a similar rescued female cham we have.

We rescued a couple of panther chams in early August. They were housed together and the female was forced to dwell in the bottom area of the cage, deep inside a very leafy plant. She did not have access to UVB or basking. She had a broken mishapen leg, a festered wound on the side of her head, the other side of her casque is slightly crushed, 2 grossly mal-aligned eyes, a cratered scar on her side, weak grip, and could not extend her tongue. Instead of moving her eyes to see she would move her head. Here is the link to the posting:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/sad-tale-2-chameleons-14453/

I should update with new info and photos.

We put her on prescription calcium, and reptile rescue food, and gutloaded crickets. The crickets were also supplemented on a schedule. She was placed in a small cage with lots of horizontal support and short leafy plants for cushion and humidity retention.

We initially fed her by holding her head in one hand and offering food via rubber coated tongs with the other hand. She would site with one eye, and then just flail her head to try to get the food. It brought tears to my eyes. She would get so excited about seeing the food! I would hold it in front of her and eventually she would calm down enough to open her mouth and she would place the front edge of her tongue right by her teeth and I would place the food on her tongue. She could hardly even use her tongue to mash or "chew" so I would have to wait very patiently while she ate, before giving her the next serving. It would take about 20 minutes to feed her 3 crickets (or the equivalent in rescue food). In fact, I think the first few meals we had to force feed her, by us opening her mouth and placing food in it.

She can now shoot her tongue (thought she misses the target), but she cup fed successfully a few weeks ago. It was so taxing for her, however, that I don't make her do it regularly. She can sight food, but has difficulty focusing on a single target. It is still hit or miss. Her grip is strong and she climbs around quite a bit, gripping with all 4 feet. She loves her mister and sits under it very relaxed. She also will come forward in her cage when she "sees" me. Caring for her has been a very gratifying experience.

From my experience I would say it is likely her tongue and eye will improve. Both are likely related to nutritional needs.

Also, we had an older adult female veiled with the long yellowish nails. I think it is a sign of age perhaps.

Gesang-

I remember reading this post. I am glad your panther rescue is doing better.

I will take your advice and use you as a model for this situation. I want to get them both outside for some natural rays and I will as soon as the weather is a bit less...cold and wet. I will probably also set up outside basking lamps for them as it is a bit chilly.

What are the best feeders right now? I am using crickets and silkies but will be out of silkworms soon and honestly, they are a bit expensive. I am trying to get roaches breeding but it will be a little while. What kind of things did you gutload with? I am using a "superfood" I make- about 20 pounds of fruit and veggies (off the top of my head...kale, collard greens, carrots, a whole butternut squash, a big thing of blueberries, maybe a little broccoli, spirulina, apples, limes and some other fruits and veggies I can't think of right now) blended up, portioned out and frozen. I pop a cube of this in with my feeders (the roaches love it, especially and the crickets are seen eating it) along with a dry mix (sometimes mixed in to the superfood) containing wheat germ, nutritional yeast, bee pollen, probiotics (acidopholus) and some added calcium. I also put a chunk of veggie in there for water such as zucchini, a slice of squash, apple or whatever I have, really. Is this enough for gutloading? I also got a leaf of prickly pear and am going to put chunks in for the next little bit and see if it is any good. I work at a health food coop and am able to get pretty much anything. What should I get? I was thinking sweet potato and hemp seed nuts next. (hemp seed nuts have all of the Omega fatty acids along with vitamins A and E and high protein)

I may try filing her nails on the sides a little and at least evening them out and sharpening them- they seem a bit cumbersome and there was no way for her to wear them down. Do you think that would be okay? I won't take length off- just excess protuberance.

....on a side note, I hope to see you at the Puyallup show- I may not make it but am really really trying to (I need frozen feeder mice and am always in the market for supplies)

 

[kinyonga]

Why bother doing anything to her nails? Its likely going to stress her out and if you take the point off the ends she may not be able to grip the branches.

Remember that excess preformed vitamin A can interfere with the D3 and cause MBD.

There are liquid calciums that are supposed to be more easily absorbed than the powders...calcium sandoz and calcium gluconate....they might help the calcium levels quicker. Be careful with them though...they are syrupy and difficult to swallow.

Have you thought about taking them to a vet to have some tests done and treatments necessary for any nutrients that are out of balance?

 

[kenya]

Why bother doing anything to her nails? Its likely going to stress her out and if you take the point off the ends she may not be able to grip the branches.

Remember that excess preformed vitamin A can interfere with the D3 and cause MBD.

There are liquid calciums that are supposed to be more easily absorbed than the powders...calcium sandoz and calcium gluconate....they might help the calcium levels quicker. Be careful with them though...they are syrupy and difficult to swallow.

Have you thought about taking them to a vet to have some tests done and treatments necessary for any nutrients that are out of balance?

I was not intending to file the points off. They are really odd- I was going to file the sides and make them pointier (but not thin!) so she could grip better.

I know that too much vitamin A is dangerous- I did a tiny dab on a cricket and fed it to her a bit ago- it was a very, very small amount- the amount I give my chams monthly.

I will see if I can get some liquid calcium- do I have to go through a vet or is there a way to get it now?

Thanks for the input- you always have something useful to say

 

[kenya]

Why bother doing anything to her nails? Its likely going to stress her out and if you take the point off the ends she may not be able to grip the branches.


Have you thought about taking them to a vet to have some tests done and treatments necessary for any nutrients that are out of balance?

Oh and yes, I am going to take her to the vet as soon as I can- I get paid on Wednesday, otherwise I have nothing at the moment. Hopefully I can work something out with my vet to let me do payments or I may end up having to eat crickets as well

About her nails- they are not pointy right now. They are very long, dark yellow, a bit flaky and have a blunt end. I wanted to give them a sharp end (as they should be) so that she could grip better as she seems to have problems holding on to branches. Advice?

 

[kinyonga]

You should be able to get the liquid calcium at a pharmacy.

It could be the MBD making her grip weak that is stopping her from holding on to the branches. Calcium levels affect the muscles. I still think filing them will be quite stressful. For an old chameleon that has trouble gripping, I often take a piece of bark and put it in the cage on an angle but so that the chameleon can still get up near the top but has less trouble gripping. It should work for this one too. I also have suggested that people with chameleons with MBD put them in shorter cages so that there is less distance to fall and less chance of injury until the bones are strong again.