Quad eggs took less than 25 days to hatch!!!

[pamnsam94]

At first I was sad. Now, I'm so amazed, shocked, and stunned! What adjectives would you use? Let me explain.

One of my 14 baby quads (coming up on 6 months at the end of this month) died yesterday. It was totally unexpected. She was one of the smaller ones (the differences in growth rates seem more pronounced lately) but not the smallest. I'm not sure what happened, but I'm very disappointed.

After that shock, I was shocked in a good way. I'm getting ready to go on a 2 1/2 week vacation to Florida, so I thought I'd better check on the 8 huge eggs, laid on 9/26/12 and mentioned in another thread, and the 10 eggs laid by the same female the very next day. Good thing I did because all 8 of the huge eggs have hatched! Unbelievable!!! As stated in my other thread, a couple of the huge eggs had what appeared and felt like egg white oozing from a miniscule hole. I figured those eggs had simply "burst" due to expanding beyond the capability of the flexible, leathery shell. After all, they have to have a limit as to how much they can expand, right?

I've been really busy lately because I took a second job to help pay for our vacation and Christmas. So, yesterday was the first time I checked on the eggs. I would've normally checked on the eggs by now to remove any bad eggs, etc., but I never thought I would need to check for neonates.

I have no idea how long ago they hatched. Does anyone know how long neonates have been known to survive in the container they hatched in? In any case, quads hatching in this short of a time (24 days or less) has to be some sort of record. Anyone else ever experience something like this?

I'm really curious what is meant when it is said the embryo will "drown" if the eggs are turned. Bird eggs need to be turned, but reptile embryos will die if turned once development starts. I want to know what happens physiologically.

From this experience, I now know that well developed embryos can even be turned upside down (as would happen as the mother climbs around) in oviparous species, not just ovoviviparous species. However, once the eggs are laid (in situ), it's completely different. The embryos at that point start getting oxygen through the permeable eggshell, as opposed to getting it through the mother's blood, and I suppose that has something to do with why the embryo will die if the egg is turned after a certain period. Any of you who know, please fill me in. Thanks.

I've been so busy that I was a little surprised to see that the eggs were laid almost a month ago! It seems like only 2 weeks ago. Besides having 8 more babies, the other good news is that the 10 normal sized eggs, laid by the same female the following day, still look really good. Normally, I would find it hard to wait 5 months (the "normal" incubation time), but given the unexpected 8 that I now have, I can use a break. I just hope these guys will do as well as the babies I currently have.

The final good news is that these 8 and the 10 eggs yet to hatch are all completely unrelated to the 13 babies I now have. Their father is the 5-horned male in my avatar. I'm still sad that I lost the little female yesteday. I wish I knew the reason. I guess it's all part of the ups and downs of chameleon keeping. I don't think I've ever used so many smiley faces.

Perry

 

[showjet95]

I think this may be something new to science.

Chris Anderson, chime in please!

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

That is amazing. Pictures to confirm!!

 

[pamnsam94]

That is amazing. Pictures to confirm!!

I'll definitely post pictures of the babies on Monday. I'm getting ready for vacation (packing, clearing off memory cards, getting things lined up for someone to watch the animals while we're gone, etc.). We're leaving mid-week. Given what has happened, I wish we could delay our trip a little longer, but our reservations are already made and paid for. I had posted a pic of one of the 8 huge eggs next to one of the 10 normal sized eggs laid the following day. I planned on taking a pic of all 18 eggs together, but I guess I won't be able to do that now.

 

[Dooley1]

I have a lot to catch up on with chameleons. Perry, I still have that male saved for you...I'll PM you.

This is literally amazing. I need to re-read all of your threads lately. I have been so busy I have not had time to do anything but skim subject lines, and the first paragraph, etc. of most threads...but I know you have been posting lots of great info.

I'm so jealous of your quad activity going on lately!

Kevin

 

[JackP308]

That's very interesting and cool . Congrats on them as well.

 

[Seeco]

Wow that is completely bizarre. They almost hatched inside her!

Once again both these clutches can be from the same dad so keep that in mind.

 

[Sticktongue]

I dont get how that is even possible to cut incubation from 5 months, to 1!! Chris, where you at! Need some sort of scientific explanation. Like Seeco said, they had to of started growing more than usual when the female still had the eggs.

Congrats by the way

 

[laurie]

Wow Perry what are you feeding those Mom's? If I had eggs hatch that fast would scare me to death. But you can do it, I know you can. I sure wish I were closer, I would almost pay to babysit your baby quads I miss them so much. I am thankful every day for TJ, my male quad from Kevin (dooley1). Just make sure you have a good sitter and have fun. You know how long you have planned this vacation.

 

[Kent67]

That is absolutely stunning.

 

[pamnsam94]

Wow that is completely bizarre. They almost hatched inside her!

Once again both these clutches can be from the same dad so keep that in mind.

Both clutches are definitely from the same father because he is the only male that I have ever let her breed with. It's strange to think of them as being two clutches. I've been referring to all 18 eggs as being a single clutch (8 huge eggs and 10 normal sized eggs) because they were laid only day apart. I guess you are correct though about them being two different clutches since, most likely, the two groups resulted from two separate matings, unless there was some sort of delayed fertilization going on, though I don't know if quads are capable of storing sperm for that long. This brings up another question. Technically, under what circumstances would the 18 eggs, laid over two days, be consindered one clutch verses two clutches? Different fertilization times alone, due to different mating occurances, delayed fertilization, or otherwise might be reason to call them two separate clutches. On the other hand, would the fact that all the eggs were laid over a two day period (not uncommon) be enough to consider all the eggs as being a single clutch? Yes, I know this is a minor detail, but I'd be interested to know if anyone has any insight on this.

I've been thinking about this whole event off and on since yesterday and I have a few more thoughts about it.

I mentioned that yesterday was the first time I had checked on the eggs since they were laid. Actually though, I did check on the huge eggs the day after they were laid because I put the 10 normal sized eggs in the same container. The two eggs that I thought had "burst", leaking what seemed to be egg white, on the second day definitely were not as plump. They appeared to be deflating, and I fully expected to find them moulding when I checked on them yesterday. I didn't notice any sweating (no tiny droplets of water) as I most often notice with eggs before they hatch, but neither did I notice any sweating on the eggs of the 14 I hatched at the end of April.

All of this is to say that, in a way, I wouldn't be surprised if at least the 2 eggs hatched on the 28th or 29th of September. That may seem unlikely though to many of you, and I have my doubts also, but is there any good info out there as to how long babies can survive in the container they hatched in? After all, it was completely dark. One of the babies was even curled tightly in a ball as if he were still in the egg. I wondered at first whether this was simply a reaction to seeing me, although I didn't see him curl up. Although none of the quads I've ever had has shown the drop and tuck behavior upon being scared, I had a female T. johnstoni back in the late 80s to early 90s that would sometimes do that. With this neonate though, it seemed to be doing something completely different, acting like it was still in the nest (eyes closed, etc.) When I moved him out into a normal cage environment, he soon woke up and crawled up one of the plants. At first he simply looked like a Jackson's chameleon before breaking out of its membrane.

As an example of how long neonates can live in a nest, I'll give you an example from another reptile I'm familiar with. I know that midland painted turtles will lay eggs late into the summer sometimes and upon hatching, the neonates will remain in the nest until the following spring. Although I've read about how they will do that, the first time I learned about it, I found out the hard way. I was much younger at the time, living with my parents. We had a garden pond, and I would often catch various native species of frogs, toads, and turtles and release them in the area in and around the pond to see if I had created a suitable habitat for them, evidenced by whether or not they would stick around. I came home from work one night after dark and went in the backyard to the pond with a flashlight, just to see if I could notice any nightime activities of any of the pond's inhabitants. Right by the edge of the pond, a painted turtle was laying her eggs. I was facinated and watched most of the event, including the mother covering up her nest. After more than the elapsed incubation period had passed, with no signs of any hatchlings, I started getting concerned and curious at the same time. I thought the eggs must have gone bad. The nights had started getting considerably cooler (by this time it was fall), and my curiosity got the better of me, so I carefully dug up the nest. All the eggs had gone bad with the exception of one. To my surprise, there was a lone hatchling just sitting there sleepy-eyed along with the bad eggs. Unfortunately, I took him out of what I now know was probably his winter bed (I doubt he would have dug out of the nest until the following spring) and happily watched him submerge beneath the water's surface as I gently placed him in the water, all the while thinking I was doing something good. The next morning I found him dead in the water. The temps had dipped below freezing overnight. So, I'm simply saying that I think it is definitely plausible that the eggs hatched within a few days of being laid. Unfortunately though, we'll never know because I didn't check them earlier.

Perry

 

[pamnsam94]

Here are a few pics that my friend took today. The first one shows one of the 8 new hatchlings next to the runt of the 14 that hatched at the end of April and one of the runt's brothers. The second pic shows one of the new babies next to one of the last clutch. The final photo shows two of the new little ones. More pics to come.

Perry

 

[robmd1]

Awww so darn cute!!! I need more quads mines lonely!!

 

[Olimpia]

That's nuts! The clutch must have just lingered in the female and incubated internally. Not necessairly the same, but I have an aunt who was 4 months pregnant with her son when she got pregnant with her second. Needless to say, one was born normally and the other was very premature but both are about 12 now and fine. So weird things have been known to happen, especially with reproduction.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

That would be great to officially document, in formal literature. Another one worthy of official documentation would be the hybrid chameleons that were hatched earlier this year.

 

[pamnsam94]

This whole experience has me thinking about a lot of questions, including one that concerns the turning of eggs. Most of us know that when we first dig up eggs to place them in the incubation container, we don't really need to be too concerned about placing the eggs in the same orientation in which they were laid (the exception, of course, is if some time has passed before we discover that eggs have been laid), although many resources would say otherwise. If the eggs get rotated very early on, we needn't be too worried. However, since I haven't really seen data as to how long that window of time is for various species (anyone know or have any good data available on any species?) , it would be wise, of course, to handle them as carefullly as possible should you ever need to pick an egg up for whatever reason.

My question is, does anyone know what the window of time is toward the end of incubation in which an egg can be turned without killing the baby? This experience has taught me that near the very end of incubation, the eggs can be turned. After the 8 huge eggs were laid, the mother moved the eggs around quite a bit trying to cover them. She chose a very shallow area in which to lay them. Not enough substrate was in that area so she couldn't dig a proper tunnel. After she did her best to cover them up, she climbed up the tree in her enclosure. Since she still looked to be carrying eggs, I started a tunnel for her in the area of the enclosure I wanted her to lay in. The next day, she dug that tunnel even deeper (the tunnel I dug was only the depth of my longest fingers) and laid the 10 normal sized eggs. I was careful, of course, both when digging up the huge eggs one day and the normal sized eggs the next. Since all 8 of the huge eggs hatched, despite getting rolled by the mother, I at least learned that with quads (in this instance anyway), eggs can be rotated for a period of time somewhere between 2 days and 24 days before hatching without killing the babies. Anyone care to share their experience with whatever species?

I'll share one instance of eggs getting rotated (never intentionally, of course). I once had a large number of fence lizard eggs (multiple clutches) incubating in the same container. Upon hatching, the frantic activity of one group of babies running around had dislodged a few eggs of another clutch. Since I couldn't tell what side was up (I hadn't marked the eggs), I was concerned that they wouldn't hatch, but they did. So, at least some (maybe all?) reptile species have a window of time towards the end of incubation in which they will still hatch, despite being rotated.

Before I get criticized, I must mention something. Almost never would I put eggs from different clutches in the same incubation container. but this time was an exception. One reason I don't make that a practice is because it is reported that there are chemicals released by the first egg when it starts to hatch that signal the other eggs to begin hatching. That partly depends on the proximity of the eggs to one another.

Please share.

Perry

 

[Seeco]

That's nuts! The clutch must have just lingered in the female and incubated internally. Not necessairly the same, but I have an aunt who was 4 months pregnant with her son when she got pregnant with her second. Needless to say, one was born normally and the other was very premature but both are about 12 now and fine. So weird things have been known to happen, especially with reproduction.

What!!!!!!!!

 

[pamnsam94]

Here's a pic my friend took on 9/27/12, the day that the 10 normal sized eggs were laid and the day after the 8 huge eggs were laid, all from the same female.

 

[laurie]

Perry I would like to raise one of the big egg babies. I plan to do a charting of the growth and development as compared to other neonates. Just sounds like a good thing for 2 of us to do and compare.

 

[Olimpia]

What!!!!!!!!

Seriously lol. They're not twins, she just happened to ovulate while pregnant and fertilized a second child months apart. It's very unusual but it has been known to happen.