pretty sure Diego has gular Edema?!?!?! Pics posted

Dawniegirl

New Member
Need some help please!!! Today when we returned home I found Diego hanging by his back feet from the top of his cage & dangling down w/ eyes closed. He was grabbing onto a the top of his ficus w/ his hands but the stem wouldn't have been strong enough for him to get onto to get down from the top. It seemed as though his back feet/ nails may have been stuck in the cage screen & he couldn't get down. I put my hand into his cage to help him get down & he seemed week. I noticed after putting him on a branch that he keep facing his head down & then I saw what looks it to be gular edema. So I took him out for pics & to get a better look. His grip & walk seems week. ((OKay while typing this he just took a BIG poo & it fell into a small amount of water onto the bottom of his cage that is there from the mister. It is HUGE solid brown poo & White Urates on the end.))
What do you think & what should be done... No dusting? Get Vit A & give, wait til monday for vet? Give his crickets a different diet? BTW I have never fully resolved is original problem of closing eyes during the day.
I'm definitely going to stop dusting but not sure where to go from there. I'm guessing a vet might be in order but we don't have one in the area that will see him. Also I read about giving a bath of 1/2 pedialyte & 1/2 warm water for 20- 25 minutes twice daily. What do you think about that & have you every heard of it? Not sure how it would help w/ edema but I case worth a try unless the bath would be bad for some reason. TIA!!!!!!!!!

Chameleon Info:

* Your Chameleon - Male, almost 7 months & had him about 3 months
* Handling - not often. 2-3 times a week briefly & then put him on another Ficus in sunnier room for some tan time, maybe for 45 minutes or so, then back to his cage.
* Feeding - Mainly Crickets 1/2 bout 10 & sometimes a couple "baby" supers about 1 inch long.
* Supplements - Sticky Tongue miner-All Phosphorous free Calium without d--3 once daily, rep-cal w/ D-3 twice a month & Herptivite twice a month
* Watering - Misting King 5x day for 1 1/2 - 2 minutes & dripper at top of cage. Occasional also spray his Ficus a little w/ hand sprayer because it seems to dry fast.
* Fecal Description - Solid & brown w/ Urate WHITE (finally... YES!)

* History - Today looks like he has gular edema & seems week. Still shuts his eyes in day like he's resting but tail not curled like when he sleeps (done this ever since I've had him).



Cage Info:

* Cage Type - Screened cage 16" deep 24" long by 30" high
* Lighting - zoo med 50 watt basking light bulb (it was a 75 watt for the first couple days but I lower it to 50 watt... basking temp was closer to high 90s-100 with the 75 watt) also use reptisun 5.0 flourescent UVB.
* Temperature - cage temp 71- low 90's in basking area. over night temp about 65-68 degrees
* Humidity - 50- 80 (80 after misting)
* Plants - Benjamin Ficus, branches & fake vines wrapped & round & hanging down from branches
* Placement - Screen cage in family room on a Exo-terra stand in the corner. no vents or windows near by him
* Location - Family room
 

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Cainschams

New Member
I would just get a plain calcium to use everyday and use the minerall once or twice a month. This might help. I was going to ask what type of water you use because of high mineral content but this could be the problem. It also could not but to start off I would slack off on the minerall for now and up his water intake. If this does not help then back to square one:eek: This is how I would start off it if I was having the same problem though.
 
Need some help please!!! Today when we returned home I found Diego hanging by his back feet from the top of his cage & dangling down w/ eyes closed. He was grabbing onto a the top of his ficus w/ his hands but the stem wouldn't have been strong enough for him to get onto to get down from the top. It seemed as though his back feet/ nails may have been stuck in the cage screen & he couldn't get down. I put my hand into his cage to help him get down & he seemed week. I noticed after putting him on a branch that he keep facing his head down & then I saw what looks it to be gular edema. So I took him out for pics & to get a better look. His grip & walk seems week. ((OKay while typing this he just took a BIG poo & it fell into a small amount of water onto the bottom of his cage that is there from the mister. It is HUGE solid brown poo & White Urates on the end.))
What do you think & what should be done... No dusting? Get Vit A & give, wait til monday for vet? Give his crickets a different diet? BTW I have never fully resolved is original problem of closing eyes during the day.
I'm definitely going to stop dusting but not sure where to go from there. I'm guessing a vet might be in order but we don't have one in the area that will see him. Also I read about giving a bath of 1/2 pedialyte & 1/2 warm water for 20- 25 minutes twice daily. What do you think about that & have you every heard of it? Not sure how it would help w/ edema but I case worth a try unless the bath would be bad for some reason. TIA!!!!!!!!!

Chameleon Info:

* Your Chameleon - Male, almost 7 months & had him about 3 months
* Handling - not often. 2-3 times a week briefly & then put him on another Ficus in sunnier room for some tan time, maybe for 45 minutes or so, then back to his cage.
* Feeding - Mainly Crickets 1/2 bout 10 & sometimes a couple "baby" supers about 1 inch long.
* Supplements - Sticky Tongue miner-All Phosphorous free Calium without d--3 once daily, rep-cal w/ D-3 twice a month & Herptivite twice a month
* Watering - Misting King 5x day for 1 1/2 - 2 minutes & dripper at top of cage. Occasional also spray his Ficus a little w/ hand sprayer because it seems to dry fast.
* Fecal Description - Solid & brown w/ Urate WHITE (finally... YES!)

* History - Today looks like he has gular edema & seems week. Still shuts his eyes in day like he's resting but tail not curled like when he sleeps (done this ever since I've had him).

Cage Info:

* Cage Type - Screened cage 16" deep 24" long by 30" high
* Lighting - zoo med 50 watt basking light bulb (it was a 75 watt for the first couple days but I lower it to 50 watt... basking temp was closer to high 90s-100 with the 75 watt) also use reptisun 5.0 flourescent UVB.
* Temperature - cage temp 71- low 90's in basking area. over night temp about 65-68 degrees
* Humidity - 50- 80 (80 after misting)
* Plants - Benjamin Ficus, branches & fake vines wrapped & round & hanging down from branches
* Placement - Screen cage in family room on a Exo-terra stand in the corner. no vents or windows near by him
* Location - Family room
your supplimenting and feeding seem fine. what do you gut load with? to be honest, gular edema is an illness that gradually shows up. if he is weak and is falling, he may have ingested something large and solid (by the way it looks like in the pictures) his throat looks kind of shifted a little. edema is usually symetrical. is there anything in his cage that he could have swollowed? substrate (bark), rocks, a piece of ficus branch,... anything?

your husbandry and supplimenting seem good, i wouldnt understand why edem would appear out of no where.

i would advise the vet check up monday, or see if there are any afterhour or weekend vets ASAP! also, do NOT give any vitamin A or D without vet consulation. too much vitamin A (im sure youve heard it) leads to organ failure, hypervitaminosis, edema, and death) too much D will lead to MBD and other severe illnessess.

BEST OF LUCK!

in the mean time, offer tons and tons of water. also see if you can get him to his and gsap or if all else fails, gently try and wedge his mouth open to see if anything is in there.
 

Dawniegirl

New Member
I would just get a plain calcium to use everyday and use the minerall once or twice a month. This might help. I was going to ask what type of water you use because of high mineral content but this could be the problem. It also could not but to start off I would slack off on the minerall for now and up his water intake. If this does not help then back to square one:eek: This is how I would start off it if I was having the same problem though.
I use RO water for his mister but the dripper is from tap water. Maybe I'll take from his mist water & just use RO water 100%.
I thought that the Minerall was mainly Calcium but now that you pointed it out I've checked out the ingredients & there is a bunch of other stuff too. I already purchase Rep-cal Calcium w/ No phosphorus & No D-3 & says it contains 100% natural phosphorus-free oyster shell calcium carbonate for it's calcium source... I'll wait a few days or so then switch to that one. Thanks for the recommendations, much appreciated!!!
 

Dawniegirl

New Member
your supplimenting and feeding seem fine. what do you gut load with? to be honest, gular edema is an illness that gradually shows up. if he is weak and is falling, he may have ingested something large and solid (by the way it looks like in the pictures) his throat looks kind of shifted a little. edema is usually symetrical. is there anything in his cage that he could have swollowed? substrate (bark), rocks, a piece of ficus branch,... anything?

your husbandry and supplimenting seem good, i wouldnt understand why edem would appear out of no where.

i would advise the vet check up monday, or see if there are any afterhour or weekend vets ASAP! also, do NOT give any vitamin A or D without vet consulation. too much vitamin A (im sure youve heard it) leads to organ failure, hypervitaminosis, edema, and death) too much D will lead to MBD and other severe illnessess.

BEST OF LUCK!

in the mean time, offer tons and tons of water. also see if you can get him to his and gsap or if all else fails, gently try and wedge his mouth open to see if anything is in there.
I gut load w/ carrots, apples & flukers orange cubes (sometimes). Along w/ dry cricket power food from Timberline. It's funny you say that it looks like something he ingested because that was my immediate thought. His crickets were on the bigger side then usual & my first thought when I saw him upside down was a lodged cricket but then it seems to be more down, lower on his neck & I thought it might have looked like an Edema. Also I would have thought when I felt the area that it would have been firmer feeling if something was lodged... it seemed to be filled up w/ liquid to the touch & maybe even an air like feel to it, very soft. Do you think it could be a lodged cricket & if so will it resolve by itself or do/ can I do something to help? BTW no substrate in bottom, its bare & I can't think of any thing else in the cage that could be ingested. I have cheese cloth over the Ficus dirt w/ rocks on it so he can't ingest any soil. Thanks again!!!
 
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Dawniegirl

New Member
your supplimenting and feeding seem fine. what do you gut load with? to be honest, gular edema is an illness that gradually shows up. if he is weak and is falling, he may have ingested something large and solid (by the way it looks like in the pictures) his throat looks kind of shifted a little. edema is usually symetrical. is there anything in his cage that he could have swollowed? substrate (bark), rocks, a piece of ficus branch,... anything?

your husbandry and supplimenting seem good, i wouldnt understand why edem would appear out of no where.

i would advise the vet check up monday, or see if there are any afterhour or weekend vets ASAP! also, do NOT give any vitamin A or D without vet consulation. too much vitamin A (im sure youve heard it) leads to organ failure, hypervitaminosis, edema, and death) too much D will lead to MBD and other severe illnessess.

BEST OF LUCK!

in the mean time, offer tons and tons of water. also see if you can get him to his and gsap or if all else fails, gently try and wedge his mouth open to see if anything is in there.
I gut load w/ carrots, apples & flukers orange cubes (sometimes). Along w/ dry cricket power food from Timberline. It's funny you say that it looks like something he ingested because that was my immediate thought. His crickets were on the bigger side then usual & my first thought when I saw him upside down was a lodged cricket but then it seems to be more down, lower on his neck & I thought it might have looked like an Edema. Also I would have thought when I felt the area that it would have been firmer feeling if something was lodged... it seemed to be filled up w/ liquid to the touch & maybe even an air like feel to it, very soft. Do you think it could be a lodged cricket & if so will it resolve by itself or do/ can I do something to help? BTW no substrate in bottom, its bare & I can't think of any thing else in the cage that could be ingested. I have cheese cloth over the Ficus dirt w/ rocks on it so he can't ingest any soil. Thanks again!!!
 

laurie

Retired Moderator
your supplimenting and feeding seem fine. what do you gut load with? to be honest, gular edema is an illness that gradually shows up. if he is weak and is falling, he may have ingested something large and solid (by the way it looks like in the pictures) his throat looks kind of shifted a little. edema is usually symetrical. is there anything in his cage that he could have swollowed? substrate (bark), rocks, a piece of ficus branch,... anything?

your husbandry and supplimenting seem good, i wouldnt understand why edem would appear out of no where.

i would advise the vet check up monday, or see if there are any afterhour or weekend vets ASAP! also, do NOT give any vitamin A or D without vet consulation. too much vitamin A (im sure youve heard it) leads to organ failure, hypervitaminosis, edema, and death) too much D will lead to MBD and other severe illnessess.

BEST OF LUCK!

in the mean time, offer tons and tons of water. also see if you can get him to his and gsap or if all else fails, gently try and wedge his mouth open to see if anything is in there.

Where did you get this information? I dust a couple of times a month with calcium with D3. I have never know this to cause MDB, that is a lack of proper lighting, and proper supplements. Calcium with d3 is not improper. I would see a vet to determine what might going on with closing the eyes and edema. What I would not do is rush out a pay for a ER vet visit.
 
I gut load w/ carrots, apples & flukers orange cubes (sometimes). Along w/ dry cricket power food from Timberline. It's funny you say that it looks like something he ingested because that was my immediate thought. His crickets were on the bigger side then usual & my first thought when I saw him upside down was a lodged cricket but then it seems to be more down, lower on his neck & I thought it might have looked like an Edema. Also I would have thought when I felt the area that it would have been firmer feeling if something was lodged... it seemed to be filled up w/ liquid to the touch & maybe even an air like feel to it, very soft. Do you think it could be a lodged cricket & if so will it resolve by itself or do/ can I do something to help? BTW no substrate in bottom, its bare & I can't think of any thing else in the cage that could be ingested. I have cheese cloth over the Ficus dirt w/ rocks on it so he can't ingest any soil. Thanks again!!!
I use this for gutload
WET: (all of these items are thrown into a food process and all of the peels left on. wash well and cut all solid fruites and veggies into small pieces so they dont chunk up in the blades.)
1 Orange, 1 apple, 1 cup red lettuce, 1 cup dandelion leaves, 4 baby carrots, 1/4 yam, 1/4 cup blueberries. *NOTE that all peels were left on* might be one or two extra items, i forget though

DRY:
3/4 cup bee pollen, 1/3 cup spirulina, 1/2 cup kelp powder, 1/4 cup Repashy CGD, 5tbs CanadianFeeders Cricket Chow, and aproximately 3/4 cup dried alfalfa, 1/4 cup organic uncooked sunflower seeds, and 1/4 cup of wheat germ. (last 3 items i wrote down how much but lost the paper)


as far as the feel to it, i dont think you would be able to feel anything solid if it were a feeder. im not quite sure. but now looking at your gutloads, i will be honest and say it isnt nutriontionally good for a chameleon. also, commercial gutloads usually have their focus on throwing EVERY vitamin and mineral into their mix, thus prEformed Vitamin A and Vitamin D are in high contents in these products. gular edema could be the case now, and could have possibly been growing and growing over the last little while now.
 
Where did you get this information? I dust a couple of times a month with calcium with D3. I have never know this to cause MDB, that is a lack of proper lighting, and proper supplements. Calcium with d3 is not improper. I would see a vet to determine what might going on with closing the eyes and edema. What I would not do is rush out a pay for a ER vet visit.
I'm sorry Laurie, there must be some misunderstanding. I myself use Calcium D3 a couple times a month as well. i never said this amount would cause MBD, as a matter of fact, here on the forums, i always encourage Calcium D3 once or twice a month. Please read my post again because I said everything seemed fine in regards to feeding and supplimentation.

DawnieGirl said this "What do you think & what should be done... No dusting? Get Vit A & give, wait til monday for vet? Give his crickets a different diet?"

which is why i said this "i would advise the vet check up monday, or see if there are any afterhour or weekend vets ASAP! also, do NOT give any vitamin A or D without vet consulation. too much vitamin A (im sure youve heard it) leads to organ failure, hypervitaminosis, edema, and death) too much D will lead to MBD and other severe illnessess."


my initial thought was something was in her chameleons mouth, at this point i didnt know her gutloading, it is rather poor IMO and could be a case of hypo-vitaminosis. the chameleon is getting a great majority of its nutrients through the supplimentation

sorry if we crossed paths and misunderstood eachother, but im just trying to help out the edema situation now based on what i've learned and am currently treating in my female who developed gular edema in gestation period. my girl is getting better and better each day and her situation was pretty bad. she has healed with 15% vet consultation and medication treatment and 75% the help of the forum and my own theories.

again, the inital assumption was something in the chameleon's throat.
 

fluxlizard

Avid Member
Doesn't look like an object lodged in the throat to me. Too far down in the chest area at least from what I can see in the pics.

I'll back up what laurie said too about d3. The key is not to take things to the extreme- if too much is bad it does not mean that none at all is better. You don't want too much or too little, you want "just right" for your situation.

I also completely agree- you should take your lizard to a good vet and get an exam and husbandry consult so you can have a little guidance about what is going on and how to correct the problem to prevent it in the future once the lizard has had some medical assistance for now.

My own 2 cents-

For that matter, I believe "too much" is probably a good bit more than most here on the forums believe when it comes to d3.

But most here on the forums seem to have good results with 5.0 tubes and d3 2x a month. That's probably a good way to go.

With long lasting eye problems- this is just me- but I'd use a multivitamin with preformed vit a every once in a while and see if it helps (maybe 1x per month for panther would be pretty safe.

You know, I used to use reptivite with vit a 1x per week for years without apparent problems with panthers and veileds (used rep-cal with d3 every couple days back then too for years without apparent problems. I didn't use the nice safe lighting tubes available today though. My chams lived as long as everyone's nowadays, with the exception of kinyonga's female veileds).

Mountain species are much more sensitive than panthers and veileds to this stuff and I'm not talking about them.

I'm not recommending anyone do what I did- I think we know a little better now and the way that is recommended here on the forums is a safer bet. But I do think the chance of over-supplementation for most of the warmer climate species of chameleons is a little exaggerated sometimes nowadays. People are blaming it sometimes on things that are unrelated entirely...
 
very well said flux, and i 100% agree with you. and i appologize to branch off a little, but i still would not use a prEformed vitamin A suppliment. i would be advised to use saffer amounts regarding vitamin D3 and multivitamin suppliments because again, all brands are different. the vitamin A itself can of course be distributed naturally through gutload ingredients, for those not knowing. both in Vitamin A and Beta Carotene. our goal as keeper is NOT to completely deplete them of vitamin A or D, but give it in safe adequate amounts. just my view
 

Dawniegirl

New Member
I use this for gutload
WET: (all of these items are thrown into a food process and all of the peels left on. wash well and cut all solid fruites and veggies into small pieces so they dont chunk up in the blades.)
1 Orange, 1 apple, 1 cup red lettuce, 1 cup dandelion leaves, 4 baby carrots, 1/4 yam, 1/4 cup blueberries. *NOTE that all peels were left on* might be one or two extra items, i forget though

DRY:
3/4 cup bee pollen, 1/3 cup spirulina, 1/2 cup kelp powder, 1/4 cup Repashy CGD, 5tbs CanadianFeeders Cricket Chow, and aproximately 3/4 cup dried alfalfa, 1/4 cup organic uncooked sunflower seeds, and 1/4 cup of wheat germ. (last 3 items i wrote down how much but lost the paper)


as far as the feel to it, i dont think you would be able to feel anything solid if it were a feeder. im not quite sure. but now looking at your gutloads, i will be honest and say it isnt nutriontionally good for a chameleon. also, commercial gutloads usually have their focus on throwing EVERY vitamin and mineral into their mix, thus prEformed Vitamin A and Vitamin D are in high contents in these products. gular edema could be the case now, and could have possibly been growing and growing over the last little while now.
Can you freeze this mixture after making it? If not it might go bad real fast... I only have Diego & only get no more then 120 crickets at a time usually If there is anything else you can think of that you add in there please let me know because I'm gonna try out your gut load... THANKS!!!!!
BTW I added a picture from that back of the cricket food on there so that you could see the ingredients. They list ingredients from the first one being what it has most of, then less & less of, so what is listed last is what it has the least of in the product (I'm sure you already knew this but just in case). You are CORRECT... Vit A & K in there & it says that it should be use as sole food. I'm not sure if given the addition choices of food (the apples & carrots) for crickets was a bad move. He use to get Cal w/D-3 twice a week until I got him at 4 months old but I see some do give it more then other even though the majority on here give it only twice a week... so I switch him to twice a week also. I however have never been able to figure out why he closes his eyes & can't help but wonder if it's all correlated. TIA for all you help
 
Can you freeze this mixture after making it? If not it might go bad real fast... I only have Diego & only get no more then 120 crickets at a time usually If there is anything else you can think of that you add in there please let me know because I'm gonna try out your gut load... THANKS!!!!!
BTW I added a picture from that back of the cricket food on there so that you could see the ingredients. They list ingredients from the first one being what it has most of, then less & less of, so what is listed last is what it has the least of in the product (I'm sure you already knew this but just in case). You are CORRECT... Vit A & K in there & it says that it should be use as sole food. I'm not sure if given the addition choices of food (the apples & carrots) for crickets was a bad move. He use to get Cal w/D-3 twice a week until I got him at 4 months old but I see some do give it more then other even though the majority on here give it only twice a week... so I switch him to twice a week also. I however have never been able to figure out why he closes his eyes & can't help but wonder if it's all correlated. TIA for all you help
as a matter of fact yes! i forgot to say, after all the wet ingredients are mixed and processed together, you scoop the mix into ice cube trays, freeze them over night and then transfer the cubes into freezer lock bags.

*i cant seem to find the pic of the label. id like to see this.

also, i would like to add, that in order for the vitamins to disolve properly in the system, they have to be in conjunction with fat solulable vitamins. mix up his diet and add a couple fatty insects like supers and waxs a couple feedings a week. one or two half feedings a week of supers and waxworms will be fine.
 

Dawniegirl

New Member
Doesn't look like an object lodged in the throat to me. Too far down in the chest area at least from what I can see in the pics.

I'll back up what laurie said too about d3. The key is not to take things to the extreme- if too much is bad it does not mean that none at all is better. You don't want too much or too little, you want "just right" for your situation.

I also completely agree- you should take your lizard to a good vet and get an exam and husbandry consult so you can have a little guidance about what is going on and how to correct the problem to prevent it in the future once the lizard has had some medical assistance for now.

My own 2 cents-

For that matter, I believe "too much" is probably a good bit more than most here on the forums believe when it comes to d3.

But most here on the forums seem to have good results with 5.0 tubes and d3 2x a month. That's probably a good way to go.

With long lasting eye problems- this is just me- but I'd use a multivitamin with preformed vit a every once in a while and see if it helps (maybe 1x per month for panther would be pretty safe.

You know, I used to use reptivite with vit a 1x per week for years without apparent problems with panthers and veileds (used rep-cal with d3 every couple days back then too for years without apparent problems. I didn't use the nice safe lighting tubes available today though. My chams lived as long as everyone's nowadays, with the exception of kinyonga's female veileds).

Mountain species are much more sensitive than panthers and veileds to this stuff and I'm not talking about them.

I'm not recommending anyone do what I did- I think we know a little better now and the way that is recommended here on the forums is a safer bet. But I do think the chance of over-supplementation for most of the warmer climate species of chameleons is a little exaggerated sometimes nowadays. People are blaming it sometimes on things that are unrelated entirely...
hummm... lots of food for thought. Thanks!
 

Dawniegirl

New Member
as a matter of fact yes! i forgot to say, after all the wet ingredients are mixed and processed together, you scoop the mix into ice cube trays, freeze them over night and then transfer the cubes into freezer lock bags.

*i cant seem to find the pic of the label. id like to see this.

also, i would like to add, that in order for the vitamins to disolve properly in the system, they have to be in conjunction with fat solulable vitamins. mix up his diet and add a couple fatty insects like supers and waxs a couple feedings a week. one or two half feedings a week of supers and waxworms will be fine.
I think FINALLY the computer uploading it, so if so here it is....
What do you think?
 

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I think FINALLY the computer uploading it, so if so here it is....
What do you think?
this has fish meal which if im correct, is high in protein. there is animal fat which is of course, very high in saturated and trans fats. there is added vitamin A along with the high protein in the fish meal. the contents of this feed is not for reptiles like chameleons, water dragons, iguanas and many types of geckos. the ingredients in here could be a hudge factor in this case. jmo
 

Dawniegirl

New Member
this has fish meal which if im correct, is high in protein. there is animal fat which is of course, very high in saturated and trans fats. there is added vitamin A along with the high protein in the fish meal. the contents of this feed is not for reptiles like chameleons, water dragons, iguanas and many types of geckos. the ingredients in here could be a hudge factor in this case. jmo
Thanks ChameleonsInMyHouse I will take it out ASAP, I just got a new batch of crickets today!!! I will add some more fresh fruits for now & then make a batch of Gut load that you suggested. Thanks again!!!!
 
nothing better than a fresh new batch of un-stinky crickets! feed them suckers good! :) i would also like to add that most to all of the ingredients for the dry gut load can be found a health nutrition store.
 

Dawniegirl

New Member
nothing better than a fresh new batch of un-stinky crickets! feed them suckers good! :) i would also like to add that most to all of the ingredients for the dry gut load can be found a health nutrition store.
Not sure what you meant by... "i would also like to add that most to all of the ingredients for the dry gut load can be found a health nutrition store". Wouldn't that be a good thing?!?! But yes I'm glad I'm starting with a fresh batch :).
 
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