our baby cham

Fantom6

New Member
My daughter has a 3-4 month old cham veiled and his legs are just like rubber. We have been giving him liquid calcuim put a new UVB light in for him and he still eats his dusted crickets. We need help and our normal Vet is on vacation, thanks.
Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Veiled, 3-4 months
Handling -3 times a week
Feeding - dusted crickets, about half a dozen every other day.
Supplements - reptical with flukers cricket food, and just started a multi vitamin dusting for the crickets
Watering - misting 3-4 times a day he drinks off the leaves and side of tank.
Fecal Description - has not been tested for parasites. his fecal is brown and soft
History - this started about a week ago and we replaced the UVB light and started the multi vitamin dusting of the crickets-Exo Terra Multi Vitamin.

Cage Info:
Cage Type -about a 5 gallon tank with foliage
Lighting - UVB Repti-glo 5.0. 10 hours on- turn off at night with a 60 watt black light with heat.
Temperature - about 80-85 during the day and 75-80 at night, thermometer
Humidity - we keep it misted but dont have a guage
Plants - artificial
Placement - on a desk in my office
Location - overland park,KS

Current Problem - his legs are rubbery and he can't move around well. His front legs have gotten better and he can coil his tail but his back legs he has no control of and his name is Henry.
 

carol5208

Chameleon Enthusiast
oh my gosh! You say you have your cham in a 5 gallon tank!? That is way too small. If he is around 4 months old then he needs something much larger! It sounds like he has the beginning of MBD(Metabolic Bone disease) from what you are describing. Can you post a pic please. You need to change out that cage and preferably get a screen enclsoure asap. How long have you had your cham and was he supplemented from the beginning? What are you measuring your temps with? I cannot believe with an enclousre that small and a 60 watt heat light that your temps are not much higher than what you say. Also he should be fed EVERY day about 15-20 small crickets. you are underfeeding him! A couple of other things, you need to be gutloading your crickets with fresh fruits and vegetables so you chameleon benefits from this. What they eat, he eats. Also, who advised the liquid calcium? your vet? You chameleon should be provided three supplements that you should be dusting your feeders wtih: Calcium without d3 at every feeding, calcium with d3 two or three times a month and the same with the multivitamin.
 
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e30nate

New Member
those temps seem high for a 3-4 month old. basking temp should be no more than 80 and the rest of the enclosure around 70, and dropping to no lower than 60 at night.
 

carol5208

Chameleon Enthusiast
those temps seem high for a 3-4 month old. basking temp should be no more than 80 and the rest of the enclosure around 70, and dropping to no lower than 60 at night.
you are correct and I don't know if that is the overall cage temp or the basking temp as they have not responded back. I hardly believe that a 5 gallon tank with a 60 watt bulb could not produce higher temps unless the bulb is about 2 feet away from the tank. The glass is going to hold the heat.
 

Fantom6

New Member
thanks for the replies

i know the tank is a little small. We have never had chams before and it is my daughters, I raise Tokays. The guy we got it off said it was big enough till he was 6 months old and until reading on the forums today I didn't know any better. The black light at night is about 2 feet above the tank. We keep the tank about 80-85 during the day but I did not know the temp could go to 60 at night, seems to cold to me but thats why I'm here to get help with Henry not critism. So thanks for the help and I am having my daughter read these too so she can properly take care of Henry. It kills me to see him like this, he just walked everywhere and climbed on anything he could reach. Still very active except for his legs. I will try and attach a couple of pics if you need more let me know thanks again.
 

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carol5208

Chameleon Enthusiast
It is hard to tell from the pics but if your cham cannot support itself with its limbs then you have a problem.Is your chameleon pooping? Sometimes if they are impacted it can possibly effect their back legs but not their front. That chameleon does not look to be 4 months old. It looks It looks to be about 2 to 3 months old tops. He could be undersized though. Your cage temp needs to be in the low to mid 70's. I am not here to criticize you at all so I hope you don't take it that way but you need to be told what to do to try and get your chameleon healthy and sometimes it is being told that you are doing things the wrong way. I will guarantee you that a 6 month old veild chameleon CANNOT stay in a 5 gallon tank, so whoever told you that totally gave you the wrong info and that is not your fault. You should have no lights on at night at all. Chameleons like it cool and DARK. Low 60's is cold for a baby, that is more for an adult but it would not kill your chameleon either if it did get that low. Also, humidity is important so you need to get something to measure that also. i hate to say this but your chameleon does not look in very good shape.
 

Cainschams

New Member
Poor guy:( He does look like he has MBD.

Here is a good article to get you started. It runs through everything from lighting to gut loading.

http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/

You really do need to get him to a vet because I am not sure you can reverse the MBD on your own. They can give him a series of shots to get him up to par faster.

Until then, we need to figure out why he has developed it if you have proper UVB lighting and are supplementing feeders properly. Did you just start supplementing with calcium? Also, is there any plastic or glass between the UVB bulb and the cage/chameleon? UVB rays cannot pass through glass or plastic. Even screens filter some of it out but there is enough that gets through to be efficient.

I would not agree with feeding a chameleon 15 to 20 appropriate sized feeders a day. That is just over kill if you ask me and reports of overfeeding veiled chameleons leading to MBD are out there.

Also 60 degrees should not be too low if the chameleon can properly warm up in the day time. No lights at night at all are needed. I keep my babies the same as adults except if they are being housed outside. Ill take babies inside if the temp is getting up to the max that I let animals outside, if I cannot be there to monitor. If I am there they stay outside with plenty of shade and frequent waterings. I do not baby my babies. If they cant survive in the same environment as adults they are just weaker specimen that need to be weeded out. No one wants a weaker specimen and certainly they dont want to breed them and dilute captive breeding attempts with sub par specimen.

Hope this helps some. Please feel free to ask any and all questions. No question is dumb regardless if one of the forum "gurus" thinks it is. There are plenty of us who like to help in a respectable manner. Unfortunately there are just as many who like to post disrespectfully.

Carol is a great help even if we have slightly different opinions on feeding and temps:)
 

carol5208

Chameleon Enthusiast
Poor guy:( He does look like he has MBD.

Here is a good article to get you started. It runs through everything from lighting to gut loading.

http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/

You really do need to get him to a vet because I am not sure you can reverse the MBD on your own. They can give him a series of shots to get him up to par faster.

Until then, we need to figure out why he has developed it if you have proper UVB lighting and are supplementing feeders properly. Did you just start supplementing with calcium? Also, is there any plastic or glass between the UVB bulb and the cage/chameleon? UVB rays cannot pass through glass or plastic. Even screens filter some of it out but there is enough that gets through to be efficient.

I would not agree with feeding a chameleon 15 to 20 appropriate sized feeders a day. That is just over kill if you ask me and reports of overfeeding veiled chameleons leading to MBD are out there.

Also 60 degrees should not be too low if the chameleon can properly warm up in the day time. No lights at night at all are needed. I keep my babies the same as adults except if they are being housed outside. Ill take babies inside if the temp is getting up to the max that I let animals outside, if I cannot be there to monitor. If I am there they stay outside with plenty of shade and frequent waterings. I do not baby my babies. If they cant survive in the same environment as adults they are just weaker specimen that need to be weeded out. No one wants a weaker specimen and certainly they dont want to breed them and dilute captive breeding attempts with sub par specimen.

Hope this helps some. Please feel free to ask any and all questions. No question is dumb regardless if one of the forum "gurus" thinks it is. There are plenty of us who like to help in a respectable manner. Unfortunately there are just as many who like to post disrespectfully.

Carol is a great help even if we have slightly different opinions on feeding and temps:)
Thanks Cainschams, and I know we all cannot agree on everything all the time!!! But we can agree on the fact that we want to help get this little guy on the right track!!!
 

Fantom6

New Member
Thanks so much jannb,carol5208,Cainschams,e30nate for all your help. We will sit down and go through all this tonight. Yes Carol he did poop last nite and it was pretty big, looked like 2 or 3 crickets in him and he is still as active as he can be . he pulled hisself onto his branches with his front 2 legs and claws(hands, not sure what to call them) I took a couple more pics of him in the foliage.Hope these are better.Is there a good way to help him open his mouth to give him water or food? I do not want to stress him out anymore than he is. We got him the first of September and the breeder said he was a week old and had to get rid of him. So being me I bought him, I rescue alot of Tokays and Cresteds when people get tired of them. My last Tokay I bought this last week from Petland and he had so much old shed on him it covered his eyes and was fusing to his skin. We then called their corporate HQ and got them involved, but back to Henry he is just the coolest little guy and I will answer everything the best I can and have been doing alot of research on him lately. Ok I have a humidity guage and will put that in there and am trying to find a 10 G tank tonight, kinda hard being christmas eve.
Cainshams as I said in another post I believe I took him to the vet yesterday(Thursday) and my vet was on vacation and the vet there didn't know anything about him so I will make an appointment when she gets back. There is a screen on top of his cage, black in color. I started the calcium as soon as I seen his legs like that which was Monday. It was all 4 legs but he is now gaining more control over his front 2 and one of his back ones he is moving around much better. The right rear leg is to where he can move it in all kinds of positions. I am using the Desert Glo 5.0 UVB and started that yesterday, I had him under a UVA lamp which I now know is very wrong and I hope I didn't cause this for the little guy. We have been feeding him about 6-10 gut loaded and dusted small crickets every other day. Looks like that was too little too.
jannb thanks I will check out your blog.
and thanks again everyone, Syd (my daughter) is learning quite a lot
 

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Cainschams

New Member
Thanks so much jannb,carol5208,Cainschams,e30nate for all your help. We will sit down and go through all this tonight. Yes Carol he did poop last nite and it was pretty big, looked like 2 or 3 crickets in him and he is still as active as he can be . he pulled hisself onto his branches with his front 2 legs and claws(hands, not sure what to call them) I took a couple more pics of him in the foliage.Hope these are better.Is there a good way to help him open his mouth to give him water or food? I do not want to stress him out anymore than he is. We got him the first of September and the breeder said he was a week old and had to get rid of him. So being me I bought him, I rescue alot of Tokays and Cresteds when people get tired of them. My last Tokay I bought this last week from Petland and he had so much old shed on him it covered his eyes and was fusing to his skin. We then called their corporate HQ and got them involved, but back to Henry he is just the coolest little guy and I will answer everything the best I can and have been doing alot of research on him lately. Ok I have a humidity guage and will put that in there and am trying to find a 10 G tank tonight, kinda hard being christmas eve.
Cainshams as I said in another post I believe I took him to the vet yesterday(Thursday) and my vet was on vacation and the vet there didn't know anything about him so I will make an appointment when she gets back. There is a screen on top of his cage, black in color. I started the calcium as soon as I seen his legs like that which was Monday. It was all 4 legs but he is now gaining more control over his front 2 and one of his back ones he is moving around much better. The right rear leg is to where he can move it in all kinds of positions. I am using the Desert Glo 5.0 UVB and started that yesterday, I had him under a UVA lamp which I now know is very wrong and I hope I didn't cause this for the little guy. We have been feeding him about 6-10 gut loaded and dusted small crickets every other day. Looks like that was too little too.
jannb thanks I will check out your blog.
and thanks again everyone, Syd (my daughter) is learning quite a lot
Glad to hear he seems to be doing better than he was with UVB lighting and calcium. Its a shame you live in Kansas because I doubt the weather is good for you to take him out into the sun which would be very beneficial to him in this state. Does the calcium have D3 in it? You will need a calcium with D3 and without. D3 can build up to toxic levels in chameleons so it is advised to use 1 or 2 times a month. You will want to give him some feeders dusted with the one with D3 ASAP and use the calcium without for a week or two and then repeat with the one with D3. Vitamins are also suggested to use only 1 or 2 times a month but a little extra cant hurt. Just remember to dust very lightly.

Go over the links and get some good veggies for gutloading crickets. Giving your feeders plenty of nutritious foods is just as important as supplementing. If your animal is still trying to eat and get around that is a good sign. You may be able to get him to up to par with proper gutloading, UVB and supplementing but a vet never hurts, which you are obviously willing to do:)

In the meantime, besides proper UVB etc, if he is falling put him in a shallower enclosure with perches near the ground but with still the UVB and basking lights in a respectable range (6 to 8 inches IMO). Just make sure he can get out of the lights also.

If he is still willing to eat and drink there is a good chance he can live a normal life. Veileds are tough SOBs!!! However, the leg, casque etc. deformities will always be there. He will just regain control over his functions.

Good luck and keep us posted.
 

carol5208

Chameleon Enthusiast
Well, if you have not provided him any UVB for 3 months to be honest with you, I am surprised he is alive. I know you did not know, but unfortunately that probably has caused alot of his problems. I would get a reptisun 5.0 tube light as soon as you can get to the stores. I would not use the desert series UVB. I don't think that is a correct bulb to use for a chameleon, let alone a baby.IF that bulb is made by Zilla I definitely wouldn't use it. There have been some issues with those bulbs and you surely would not want to ge off of the wrong foot again especially with all the issues you have already. I know you are trying to do the right thing and with the correct lighting and supplements hopefully you can get this guy back into a healthy state again. I wish you luck and am glad that you are willing to make the changes to do so. Follow what JannB tells you to do her in her blog and don't hesitate to ask any questions. We are not here to judge you,just to help. Please keep us posted on your little guy.
 

carol5208

Chameleon Enthusiast
Glad to hear he seems to be doing better than he was with UVB lighting and calcium. Its a shame you live in Kansas because I doubt the weather is good for you to take him out into the sun which would be very beneficial to him in this state. Does the calcium have D3 in it? You will need a calcium with D3 and without. D3 can build up to toxic levels in chameleons so it is advised to use 1 or 2 times a month. You will want to give him some feeders dusted with the one with D3 ASAP and use the calcium without for a week or two and then repeat with the one with D3. Vitamins are also suggested to use only 1 or 2 times a month but a little extra cant hurt. Just remember to dust very lightly.

Go over the links and get some good veggies for gutloading crickets. Giving your feeders plenty of nutritious foods is just as important as supplementing. If your animal is still trying to eat and get around that is a good sign. You may be able to get him to up to par with proper gutloading, UVB and supplementing but a vet never hurts, which you are obviously willing to do:)

In the meantime, besides proper UVB etc, if he is falling put him in a shallower enclosure with perches near the ground but with still the UVB and basking lights in a respectable range (6 to 8 inches IMO). Just make sure he can get out of the lights also.

If he is still willing to eat and drink there is a good chance he can live a normal life. Veileds are tough SOBs!!! However, the leg, casque etc. deformities will always be there. He will just regain control over his functions.

Good luck and keep us posted.
Am I mistaken or is the Desert Series bulb incorrect? Shouldn't it be the tropical one if anything?. Me personally I would not use the Zilla series for fear there are still some of those defective bulbs floating around in old stock at stores. If you see you cham closing his eyes during the day for any reason, it is most likely being caused by that bulb, just so you are aware.
 
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Cainschams

New Member
Am I mistaken or is the Desert Series bulb incorrect? Shouldn't it be the tropical one if anything?. Me personally I would not use the Zilla series for fear there are still some of those defective bulbs floating around in old stock at stores. If you see you cham closing his eyes during the day for any reason, it is most likely being caused by that bulb, just so you are aware.
I am not sure. I really do not go into depth with lighting. Housing my chams outside half the year and housing them inside with repti sun 5.0s has proven efficient to me so I do not worry/research other lighting. I think any UVB would be beneficial to this cham for a few days regardless. He di say 5.0 which is more tropical.

OP is the light linear/tube style or compact/spiral? Other lighting works but IMO for beginners reptisun 5.0 and a house hold bulb for basking is as easy as it gets.

MichelleAndrea, "15 to 20 everyday" really does not help. What is 15 to 20 everyday? Insects, amount of hours the lights are on, tv time:confused: If you are going to post in a health clinic please be thorough with your posts explaining why you feel this is the best opinion. It does not help someone to tell them what you think is the right way with no explanation of why. Personally I would not take that statement as one that means anything whether you have 0 to 50 years of experience.
 

carol5208

Chameleon Enthusiast
I am not sure. I really do not go into depth with lighting. Housing my chams outside half the year and housing them inside with repti sun 5.0s has proven efficient to me so I do not worry/research other lighting. I think any UVB would be beneficial to this cham for a few days regardless. He di say 5.0 which is more tropical.

OP is the light linear/tube style or compact/spiral? Other lighting works but IMO for beginners reptisun 5.0 and a house hold bulb for basking is as easy as it gets.

MichelleAndrea, "15 to 20 everyday" really does not help. What is 15 to 20 everyday? Insects, amount of hours the lights are on, tv time:confused: If you are going to post in a health clinic please be thorough with your posts explaining why you feel this is the best opinion. It does not help someone to tell them what you think is the right way with no explanation of why. Personally I would not take that statement as one that means anything whether you have 0 to 50 years of experience.
No she said it was the desert series and there was someone on here the other day whose chams was closing its eyes from one of the desert series bulbs. You know the motto "if it ain't broke, then don't fix it" so I figure there is a high success rate with the Reptisun 5.0 and thats what I am sticking with here!!!!
 

MichelleAndrea

New Member
I am not sure. I really do not go into depth with lighting. Housing my chams outside half the year and housing them inside with repti sun 5.0s has proven efficient to me so I do not worry/research other lighting. I think any UVB would be beneficial to this cham for a few days regardless. He di say 5.0 which is more tropical.

OP is the light linear/tube style or compact/spiral? Other lighting works but IMO for beginners reptisun 5.0 and a house hold bulb for basking is as easy as it gets.

MichelleAndrea, "15 to 20 everyday" really does not help. What is 15 to 20 everyday? Insects, amount of hours the lights are on, tv time:confused: If you are going to post in a health clinic please be thorough with your posts explaining why you feel this is the best opinion. It does not help someone to tell them what you think is the right way with no explanation of why. Personally I would not take that statement as one that means anything whether you have 0 to 50 years of experience.

ok, uhm, not to be rude but chill out. it eats 15-20 crickets a day. youre starving it. 6 every two days is barbaric.
 

Fantom6

New Member
a great read!! http://www.critterology.com/metabolic_bone_disease_in_lizards_iguanas_and_other-177.html
Should we be using the tropical? I bought the 24 inch flourescent Repti-Glo 5.0 Exo Terra but did not see a Tropical bulb there. But I checked them out online so I'll ask for one next time if I need to. MichelleAndrea I don't think Henry is big enough to eat 20 crickets by hisself but I will up the number I was told to feed him, thanks. Carol , Zilla is having problems with their bulbs? Sounds like some of the problems we had with painting cars, we had to use certain bulbs for certain temps and humidity, thanks I'll check into that. We got him to drink a little water and put a drop of calcium on a stick and he licked it off, so now its sleep time for the little guy and I'll update you tomorrow, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all and my daughter Sydney said to tell you all Thank you very much!!!:):)
 

carol5208

Chameleon Enthusiast
You might be surprised what your cham will eat if you let him! Some members feed their young as much as they will eat in an alloted time. Mine ate about 15 a day at 4 months old, no problem. Yes, I have read several threads on here about the Zilla bulbs. They supposedly had resolved the problems but someone who was researching the bulbs had asked the company to respond to certain questions about how they had corrected the bulb and they never did. Anyways, the danger was old stock being sold off with the bulbs that were dangerous. Like I said, alls you can do is try it and you will see your cham closing his eyes if it is a bother. by the way, not sure if you are aware of this or not, but Chameleons never sleep during the day. If they are, then there is some type of problem going on such as the temps being too high or the lighting. Well, you have had a lot to take in in one short day. Keep us posted!!!!
 
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