is Jacksonii a recognized sub-species?

adamkwas

Established Member
Are the three (I know more have been found) "Jacksonii sub-secpecies" (xantholophus, jacksonii and merumontanus) recognized as species or sub-species? I was under the impression that they were elevated to species status last year...maybe not, though.
 

Maurer3D

New Member
They can cross breed with each other and produce fertile offspring. If they were separate species the babies would be sterile. Sub-species are alot like locals, just minor differences usually just size and or colors.
 

Chris Jury

New Member
To the best of my knowledge, they're still accepted as subspecies, and have not been elevated to full species status, but it's also possible I missed a publication... Also, I don't believe that there are any other recognized subspecies besides xantholophus, jacksonii, and merumontanus. For example, T. j. "willegensis" is not a valid taxon.

Cross-breeding among subspecies or even species (and sometimes even higher taxonomic levels) does not necessarily mean that the offspring will be infertile. In fact, there are many examples of natural as well as unnatural hybrids among subspecies and species that are fertile and perfectly able to breed successfully. Hybridization sometimes results in viable but infertile offspring (e.g., horse + donkey = mules), but this result is specific to the pairing, and not a general consequence of hybridization.
 

eisentrauti

Avid Member
They can cross breed with each other and produce fertile offspring. If they were separate species the babies would be sterile. Sub-species are alot like locals, just minor differences usually just size and or colors.
Any prooves or examples on this ? I cant imagine that a merumontanus can be crossed with any of the Kenyan subspecies, nor can I imagine that j.j. and j.x. can produce offspring. Those two species are so often sent together in shippments, there would appear crosses frequently if this would be possible
 

jdog1027

Established Member
Any prooves or examples on this ? I cant imagine that a merumontanus can be crossed with any of the Kenyan subspecies, nor can I imagine that j.j. and j.x. can produce offspring. Those two species are so often sent together in shippments, there would appear crosses frequently if this would be possible
Not that I am educated on this matter, but I would have to agree with eisentrauti that this is probablly not possible.
 

Chris Anderson

Dr. House of Chameleons
Staff member
Any prooves or examples on this ? I cant imagine that a merumontanus can be crossed with any of the Kenyan subspecies, nor can I imagine that j.j. and j.x. can produce offspring. Those two species are so often sent together in shippments, there would appear crosses frequently if this would be possible
Actually the description of Trioceros jacksonii xantholophus (Eason et al., 1988) suggests that there may be gene exchange between T. j. jacksonii and T. j. xantholophus along their contact zone in the wild (around Kagumo), even listing the locality as "C. j. jacksonii x xantholophus" in the distribution figure.

Chris
 

adamkwas

Established Member
Also, I don't believe that there are any other recognized subspecies besides xantholophus, jacksonii, and merumontanus. For example, T. j. "willegensis" is not a valid taxon.
Maybe you're right. I had thought I had read somewhere that some smaller species, originally thought to be merumontanus, were deemed their own Sub-Species. This probably isn't true haha.

Thanks for the input, everyone.
 

Kent67

Retired Moderator
Actually the description of Trioceros jacksonii xantholophus (Eason et al., 1988) suggests that there may be gene exchange between T. j. jacksonii and T. j. xantholophus along their contact zone in the wild (around Kagumo), even listing the locality as "C. j. jacksonii x xantholophus" in the distribution figure.

Chris
They included photos of "intergrade" animals in The Vivarium article about that trip, also. Chris, have you heard anything recently about the "new" forms that were supposed to be published as new subspecies?
 
Any prooves or examples on this ? I cant imagine that a merumontanus can be crossed with any of the Kenyan subspecies, nor can I imagine that j.j. and j.x. can produce offspring. Those two species are so often sent together in shippments, there would appear crosses frequently if this would be possible

Hi eisentrauti
the status "species" or "subspecies" does not necessar ily say anithing about possible offsprings and their fertility. E.g. look at the Kinyongia fischeri complex: Until 2008 there were some subspecies K fischeri multituberculata, f. vosseleri, f. fischeri. - Since 2008 they are all classified as own species. So until 2008 that would mean the subspecies could breed fertile offsprings, and after 2008 infertile or no offsprings. The truth is, that noone did ever check up if there are interspecies offsprings at the Kinyongia fischeri complex, and the definition of subspecies does not include fertile offsprings (and the other way round)

You asked for an example of fertile offsprings of different species:
Ursus maritimus (polar bear)
Ursus arctos horribilis (grizzly bear)
These two bears produce fertile offsprings where their populations overlap.
There are many other examples.

Remember: Nature does not follow "our" humans rules. The "border" between the definitions "species" and "subspecies" is more like a smooth transition and you need always take a look at genes and dispersial.
 

Zach Valois

New Member
Well, part of this conversation seems to be going in the way of a species debate.. or sub-species rather.

I tend to push towards a cladistic approach. I feel that if anything is diagnosable, then it is a species. However, the 'cladistic species concept' is more or less defined on cladistic branching, where a single lineage can have varied or even seperate phenetic differences.

But looking at the species, sub-species, or even meta-population level.... and well I've already lost myself.

In my own head...I treat these three sub-species as distinct lineages (i.e. species), but as to adhere to scientific due process (... ICZN), I follow the current recognition of sub-species of the three aforementioned taxa.

On the contrary, I feel breeding characters hold little weight in defining species boundaries... as much as I respect and admire Mayr. :)
 
Top Bottom