Impaction from Wax Worms???

[Zen Reptiles]

My panther I have been keeping alive for about 2 months now has finally passed.

I did a necropsy, and everything looked normal except his colon.

It was 3-4 times the size it should have been, so I cut it open.

Was full of 'deflated' waxworm skins. It was not parasites, or any other type of worm.

Here is the strange part....he hasn't had waxworms in over a month. I fed him some because he was on a hunger strike and I felt he needed some high-calorie food and some fat.

There were about 15-20 in there, totally undigested. When he was getting them, I was feeding him 3-5 a day, however many he would take, for about a week.

Another strange thing is, he was digesting crickets and superworms perfectly fine, and amongst the waxworm carcasses, there was well-digested cricket and superworm material....but was blocked from being pooped out from the waxworms.

He had a basking spot on 12 hours a day with a 75w, halogen soft white bulb that made his basking spot 85F, with option to get closer up to 95F+

No parasites, fecals were done in the Fall with no problems. This one is a mystery to me. I thought the soft bodies would be the most easy thing to digest....clearly not.

 

[JackP308]

That is strange, evidence proves to be the wax worms weren't being digested , but why not is the million dollar question. Hopefully some one can shed a little light on your situation. Thanks for sharing and sorry about the loss of your chameleon.


Maybe they were tainted I really don't know but interested in peoples thoughts. . Any other animals you feed them same worms to?

 

[Zen Reptiles]

Actually, now that you mention it, we did lose a female Phelsuma grandis last month as well, who was fed the same waxworms..... VERY unexpectedly. It was really a shock that she died.

And all the other Phelsuma are fine and fat and happy.

There were several animals that got them, but the problems started around that time. Everyone else is fine, maybe there were just a few tainted ones.

I've had trouble getting the right amounts of feeders from this guy, and varying quality of the insects I have gotten. Unfortunately he is the only one in the Province who sells them

 

[Zen Reptiles]

I am really trying to get to the bottom of this as this was my favorite chameleon.

I've talked to a few people now, and there are a few theories.

1) the waxworms were on pine shavings. This guy (who has a monopoly on feeder insects in BC and does a horrible job on quality control) keeps his waxworms on some sort of shavings. I do not know if they are pine shavings however. From what I have read and heard from others is that pine shavings are a big no-no. There was no other food in there for the waxworms to eat when purchased, and could have been eating the shavings.

2) a personal friend and fellow reptile enthusiast mentioned sometimes a 'vaseline' type 'wax' is put on the waxworms to prevent them from growing rapidy, prolonging their shelf-life and preventing metamorphosis. This wax can cause serious digestive issues like what my guy experienced.

I have been unable to find much info about this practice though, still researching.

3) serious bacterial contamination. After feeding off the waxworms in the tub, there were 3-5 dead, rotten, brown ones at the bottom of the tub enclosed within the wood shavings (hard to find unless looking for them). I remember I accidentally squished one of these and it sure smelled horrible. Could this have contaminated the rest of them?

This guy is now the rodent supplier as well (used to be someone better). The FIRST package I got from him had 3 hoppers in it. Two were fine, the third was BROWN AND ROTTEN and smelled like death (should be white hair and fresh). This is the kind of guy we're dealing with.

 

[ataraxia]

so, your chameleon did not have a bowel movement in over a month?

how was his urates before the worm intake and was he drinking while being impacted?

 

[lindawaz]

I am very sorry for your loss. No matter what I would figure out a way

to start breeding my own feeders.

 

[xanthoman]

ok, well, heres my thoughts

first of all it always sucks to loose a cham, regardless of the reason.

not trying to say i told you so, but just trying to point out the value of a little research before hand.

waxworms are generally accepted as being a poor frequent feeder, and should only be offered as an occasional treat. imo, 1 or 2 worms every week is excessive.
waxworms are high in fat and hard to digest, plus feeding captive chams all they will eat just because they will eat it, is also not recommended and should be considered another husbandry basic,

as well, imo no one feeder should make up more than about 35-40% of their overall diet. plus excessive calcium or d3 can also cause digestive issues regardless of the feeder, but especially where things like wax or butter worms are concerned.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/74-feeders.html

1. waxworm larvae eat cellulose (wood fiber), so if your worms were in pine shavings and kept at anytime above 50* i can guaranty your worms were eating the shavings. waxworms can eat a large amount of wood in a single day. cellulose is a very difficult thing for a chams digestive system to deal with, especially on an ongoing basis.

2. imo any waxworms that arrive in shavings should be immediately transferred to a mixture of wheatabix (or other grain/granolalike media) and honey. a small amount of glycerin is commonly used to stop the honey from drying out. this may be what your friend was referring to. imo, any waxworms should be allowed to feed on their new media for at least 2 days before feeding to your chams.
imo, the vaseline thing, is unlikely, because its unnecessary, the life cycle and therefore shelf life, is easily controlled by temp.

imo, another husbandry basic, is if you suspect your animal of having digestive problems , stop feeding. they can easily go weeks without food, so why not give them a couple of days of food rest now and then, to let their digestive system catchup and resolve any issues.


im not a panther person but the 95* option seems equally risky and excessive to me. especially depending on how you measure your temps. if you thought your temps were 95 but they were actually several degrees higher (like could easily be the case , if one was measuring with an ir temp gun with a wide distance:spot ratio and especially if they werent aware of how to properly use it) then that could easily produce temp readings that were significantly different from the actual temp (not saying this is the case, just giving it as an example) so imo, its not just an issue of "faulty feeders", it is more an issue of good husbandry practices, which would include doing the research you need to do, to know whether what/how you are feeding is healthy.

a phelsuma can thrive on a diet that would kill a cham so the success of any part of a phelsuma diet, should not be used as a gauge for suitability as a cham diet.

sorry for your loss, and hopefully you have learned something from it, but, have to say, none of it seems like any big mystery to me
jmo

ps coastal silkworms has international shipping of silkworm eggs( be sure to read fine print when ordering) and also this tip comes courtesy of cf member kami. so yo could try your hand at raising silks.
since you are in kamloops, i am assuming temps are below 50* so you may be out of luck on starting a culture of bbfs until spring, but if you notice any bbfs hanging around your garbage pm and ill give you some instructions to get started.

also i would try some canadian gecko, spider, and entomology forums. you cant tell me there is not one hobbyist in ca that has dubia, bsfl, or bbfs and private hobbyists are less likely to be concerned with the specific legalities of bug postal regs. so i am sure there are feeders out there, its just a question of looking hard enough. jmo

 

[ataraxia]

please dont take this wrong. im not attacking your reply but i am interested in supporting information you have for your comments.

plus excessive calcium or d3 can also cause digestive issues regardless of the feeder, but especially where things like wax or butter worms are concerned. im interested in excessive calcium causing digestion issues. any links?


1. waxworm larvae eat cellulose (wood fiber), so if your worms were in pine shavings and kept at anytime above 50* i can guaranty your worms were eating the shavings. waxworms can eat a large amount of wood in a single day. cellulose is a very difficult thing for a chams digestive system to deal with, especially on an ongoing basis. i know some animals arent able to break cellulose down but others are able to do this very well. chameleons frequently eat leaves and feeders gut loaded with ingredients containing cellulose. do you have any links for this being true in chameleons and what are any effects caused from ongoing consumption?

 

[JackP308]

http://www.caudata.org/forum/f1173-advanced-newt-salamander-topics/f11-food-live-frozen-freeze-dried-pellets-etc/f23-waxworms-mealworms-maggots-etc/80738-proof-doody.html

Ive been googling and I've came up with a few links regarding wax worms being hard to digest in other species so far. Heres one regarding salamanders.

 

[sandrachameleon]

If an animal is unwell, it could hamper its ability to digest

I've had a chameleon that defecated out a totally undigested "in tact" waxworm. More than once actually. He was not an agressive "chewer" of his food. I found that it was important to pierce many of the larva he ate, using a needle, to ensure digestive juices would penetrate.

Waxworms raised/kept in unsantitary condidtions would be more likely to cause illness than simply go undigested, I would think. But Might be time for a change regardless of whether or not the product was responsible for the problem. There are lots of other bug suppliers in Canada - and it sounds like you're not overly pleased with your current one.

 

[Zen Reptiles]

Thank you very much for the great responses.

A bit more on his diet.....

He always had a varied diet of roaches (Turks, Hissers, Dubia - which I have colonies of each), silkworms (which I also breed, albeit the production rate is very slow), his favorite food item was superworms, and crickets whenever I had them ordered in. I gutload everything with fresh veggies since we always have scraps around the house anyways, and all cages are cleaned frequently.

I am not one to feed waxworms unless I think an animal is fat-deficient, and his fat pads were going down during his hunger strike so I got some waxworms for him. I do not usually order bugs, only crickets when I have babies around (due to the sheer volume of food being consumed), and waxworms when I think someone needs to gain a bit of weight.

I actually ripped each one of their heads off so the inner juices would come out easier during digestion.

OTHER food was being digested....that is the strange part. In his digestive system I found lots of digested material throughout. He was eating and was pooping every 2-3 days. The poops were a bit strange, very thin. Obviously this was because it had to pass through all the waxworm carcasses. His urates were quite normal, but in the end days became only liquid.

There were some undigested crickets on the floor in the last week, and I thought they were going through him that way, however I witnessed him puking them up. I would assume because of the blockage getting 'fermented' and compact - they had no other way to go.

And yes he was drinking a lot during all of this time. I gave him many showers as well where he would drink a lot.

I am sure this had something to do with the waxworms, as there were no other husbandry mistakes to the best of my knowledge & ability, and I have over 30 animals here that are all doing perfectly fine.

There were 4 Giant Day Geckos that had waxworms, one of them died, and two of them weren't looking so good there for about 2 weeks. They bounced back quickly on their regular diet of roaches and fruit mixes, but the one didn't make it. The only chameleon that got waxworms was this Panther.

PS as for basking. I use a heat gun that I've tested against other forms of temperature gauging to be sure of accuracy. Whenever I checked him, he was always between 80-86 in his basking spot (Body temp). He had the option to get to 95 but rarely ever did. When he wasn't basking he was between 72-78. Night time temps range from 65-75.

 

[ataraxia]

thats really strange. i personally was thinking maybe he was a bit dehydrated.

i had a friend call me last summer stating his chameleon had an undigested waxworm hanging from his chameleons vent. maybe they cant digest a wax worms exoskeleton.

 

[Zen Reptiles]

He did rub a few of them off his vent, I thought they were sperm plugs.

 

[TimUp]

I'm sorry for your lost chameleon. Thanks for posting this information as I have learned a great amount. I had been giving mine a couple of wax worms as treats and am rethinking this.