Here comes the antichrist!

Sonny13

Chameleon Enthusiast
Here comes the antichrist…….please don’t curse me, I just want to share this with you, because I think it’s very interesting. That saying, I’m herewith not encouraging this nor recommending it.

What’s the deal?

Last week we bought Sonny, a Xantholophus, and the short-term intentions were to keep him outside in a kind of butterfly cage (filled with live plants and a ficus tree), until all supplies are in to build his final inside enclosure. Well weather changed and no sun and just rain, rain and rain, so we felt sorry for Sonny and we would love to give him some shelter from the rain, however then he wouldn’t UVB nor warmth. Thinking about his first 9 months were already in poor conditions and never was outside in the rain before. So that’s when it happened!

Lately we build this huge enclosure for our K. Boehmei Ranjo 36”x18”x60” made from glass and screen, fully filled-up with plants, branches and a large Schefflera tree. And was thinking if we just could give Sonny a few hours battery recharging, that would be enough to sit his time out outside. Together with knowing that Ranjo roams his enclosure all day long and the thoughts big vs. small animal, maybe just maybe this could work. And so, I tried and put Sonny in Ranjo’s, enclosure and yes I can feel your crosses burn on my body, still I trusted my intuition.

So what happened? At first Ranjo spooked out completely as I expected and even ran off when Sonny came close (Sonny didn’t seem bothered about Ranjo). However, then it started, because I don’t use a basking spot, only linear UVB and jungle dawn led bars, they can bask for UVB at different spots, and this started to happen. Sonny was basking UVB and Ranjo came close to him and took his portion of UVB, before proceeding his daily patrolling routine. During their basking time both didn’t care of each other, nor showed one different (stress) colors. This seemed pretty interesting, therefore I left Sonny in a bit longer as intended, and both did their own things the rest of the day. At that point I thought, maybe I let Sonny in for the night, then I know he will get hydration and I take out next morning. Then came the night, they both went for their sleeping spot, Ranjo at his usual spot and Sonny at the same level as him, only 8” from him away. And they both slept, really tight, even my late evening check-up didn’t wake them. By early morning when I entered the room, both boys were sitting in close vicinity of each other basking UVB, like nothing was going on, no stress signs or whatsoever. Okay, now I tickled and curious.

As their feeders are the same, the size of them isn’t, therefore I wanted to proceed, with what no was starting to get an experiment. I putted in feeders for them both, each one went for his own meal. Ranjo definitely can’t eat Sonny’s feeders, way too big and Sonny won’t look at Ranjo’s feeders as long he has his own.

Well, the experiment started Friday and is still proceeding. Both, are eating, pooping, basking and sleeping. On which Ranjo keeps his daily routine and doesn’t seem to avoid Sonny during his routines. Sonny on the other hand, does his thing and nearly has eye for Ranjo. Both not giving any signs of stress.

So, what was I thinking? well basically that the enclosure was large enough for Ranjo to hide for a few hours and this would cause slightly stress, however this would be very short in time and just a onetime only thing.

What I’m thinking now? Don’t know, the experiment will end soon, because tomorrow or the day after tomorrow I will receive the needed supplies to finish my project for Sonny and he will get his own place. Therefore, we won’t know the long-term effects of it. Still, I start to believe that if the space is large (really large and naturally equipped) enough and species are not the same (only the country or area) and differential in size (smaller vs bigger species), on which is important they can’t be eaten by one, I think they can life and tolerate each other. However, if this a wise thing to do, probably not. No long term effects are known I think.

Thanks for reading and I already accepted I will get burned.

DISCLAIMER I thought about sharing this with you, because it could trigger wrong behavior, still I didn’t want to keep it for myself. Because it was too interesting not to share it. And we’re all grown adults to be wise enough for this sensible information. So stay prudent!
 

redhorse

Chameleon Enthusiast
JMO-- I have had many different species and not one would ever display, challenge, or show interest in the other species. My opinion is with only what I have experienced. If I have 2 veiled cages within view of each other or view of a glass reflection-- look out the huffing and puffing begins. Not only with males but the females will get all upset too (depending on the season).
Veiled (males and females)-Panther (all males) - Jacks (males and females) were the only 3 I had at one time. On the trees, fiscus, orange, and lemon they would even crawl over each other with little reaction almost looking through them with purpose to destination.

Great experiment! Plus with over the 100's of wild chameleon videos (knowing they are edited) I have watched, never witnessed fights with different species.. Guess I will be educated NOW with videos from others. (y)

Great job!

Unfortunately I learn from my ignorance and need factual, physical, and logical proof. Even then I doubt some things. :D That is why I am an easy target.
 
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Sonny13

Chameleon Enthusiast
Great experiment! Plus with over the 100's of wild chameleon videos (knowing they are edited) I have watched, never witnessed fights with different species.. Guess I will be educated NOW with videos from others.
That's exactly what made me thinking about it and what I'm feeling right now. (y)

Unfortunately I learn from my ignorance and need factual, physical, and logical proof. Even then I doubt some things. :D That is why I am an easy target.
Well that makes 2! It are the thin lines that attract me 😇

Great job!
Thanks, this wasn't the first reaction I expected. And interesting to read your observations, through the years (y)
 

redhorse

Chameleon Enthusiast
When you get the opposite reaction- don't get defensive like I have in the past.. To much stress being accused of things over words that don't change who we really are.

Plus, still doing my own stuff that others have said "don't do it". I should have listened since ------- not going to snitch on myself. (y) Not dealing with chameleons but a type of worm (that's all).
 

Sonny13

Chameleon Enthusiast
When you get the opposite reaction- don't get defensive like I have in the past.
Thanks, I definitely wont. When posting this I calculated the risk of being criticized, and that's no problem. I respect everyone's opinion and this is meant for sharing information.
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
Sonny I have great respect for you. However sharing this in a forum with a bunch of Newbies is something that will back fire. While you may not see the outcome, for others that are New and read this it will be a green light for them to toss two Veileds in a cage together.

This was an experiment for you that did not go immediately wrong others may take that that as "it worked" and "it's safe".
Truth is it does not work. Chams will not only kill one another but they will establish dominance over another. This eventually kills one because the other is the dominant one in control of the cage. While there are certain species that live in family groups this has to still be done with care and a huge amount of space.

Second thing is you just cross contaminated your cage... So if Sonny does have a parasite load you just introduced that to Ranjo. And if you had not gotten Ranjo tested you just cross contaminated to Sonny as well. While some parasites are easy to treat. Some are absolutely not. Since you now have multiples you have to always take that into consideration. Some parasites like coccidia can take out a collection.

I want to make it clear that in NO way should any one co habitat chameleons. Same species or not. This is dangerous. And although they may not display immediate signs of stress this is something that is just not worth the risk.
 

Sonny13

Chameleon Enthusiast
Sonny I have great respect for you. However sharing this in a forum with a bunch of Newbies is something that will back fire. While you may not see the outcome, for others that are New and read this it will be a green light for them to toss two Veileds in a cage together.

This was an experiment for you that did not go immediately wrong others may take that that as "it worked" and "it's safe".
Truth is it does not work. Chams will not only kill one another but they will establish dominance over another. This eventually kills one because the other is the dominant one in control of the cage. While there are certain species that live in family groups this has to still be done with care and a huge amount of space.

Second thing is you just cross contaminated your cage... So if Sonny does have a parasite load you just introduced that to Ranjo. And if you had not gotten Ranjo tested you just cross contaminated to Sonny as well. While some parasites are easy to treat. Some are absolutely not. Since you now have multiples you have to always take that into consideration. Some parasites like coccidia can take out a collection.

I want to make it clear that in NO way should any one co habitat chameleons. Same species or not. This is dangerous. And although they may not display immediate signs of stress this is something that is just not worth the risk.
I agree with you completely and I wished there was a more closed thread for forum members at a certain status, that I could share it with.

As also noted I’m not encouraging it in no way. I won’t mind if gets deleted or moved to another thread, which is closed for certain members.

Tomorrow or Wednesday Ranjo and Sonny will be separated again, as mentioned. They won’t be staying together for long. Both are and were tested and 300% a good point.

And considered it many times, the newbies and wrong interpretation, before I shared it.
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
I agree with you completely and I wished there was a more closed thread for forum members at a certain status, that I could share it with.

As also noted I’m not encouraging it in no way. I won’t mind if gets deleted or moved to another thread, which is closed for certain members.

Tomorrow or Wednesday Ranjo and Sonny will be separated again, as mentioned. They won’t be staying together for long. Both are and were tested and 300% a good point.

And considered it many times, the newbies and wrong interpretation, before I shared it.
Next time post in the Lizard lounge. It does not show up on the main page and mostly the longer term members look there. :)
 

Sonny13

Chameleon Enthusiast
Next time post in the Lizard lounge. It does not show up on the main page and mostly the longer term members look there. :)
Crap didn’t know 😤😤 please could you arrange that it gets moved towards the Lizard lounge please?
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
Sonny he moved it over for you. And I did not want to rain on your experiment. I have always just been so newbie focused and when stuff like this pops up in the main forum... Well honestly it is a fine line between what people read and they in turn implement. Ya know...
 

Sonny13

Chameleon Enthusiast
Sonny he moved it over for you. And I did not want to rain on your experiment. I have always just been so newbie focused and when stuff like this pops up in the main forum... Well honestly it is a fine line between what people read and they in turn implement. Ya know...
Becky (wasn’t it and if I may call you so?), you where completely correct about it, I already had difficulties sharing it, due this reason.
Because I thought and find there should reason to talk and discuss about it, especially here, I eventually did post and shared it with you, with the knowledge a would get a lot criticism. That I exacted completely.

It’s sounds now like an planned experiment and I’d like to emphasize it wasn’t. Just wanted shortly that Sonny could recharge his battery. And yes in the wild, they would experience the same, still I relativize it as with people. Someone who’s working at an office and suddenly needs to work all week long in the pouring rain without giving them a place to warm-up, most will catch a cold. Due the bad weather forecast I made this decision. That it eventually turned out this way was just collateral. And just don’t know what to think about it, If you would see it, it’s like the two have been living together for years. Maybe the only reason shared it, is that maybe someone says, “I’ve witnessed the same once, however for the long term it didn’t worked out”.
Like mentioned Sonny gets his own space today or tomorrow, still waiting for the Arcadia lights. Because I wanna keep free range in de largest space he can get, to become as huge as he can get. Therefore whatever the feedback will be from my sharing, it won’t change anything for my intentions.

Last thing, I respect you big time for the help and support you give to everyone, especially newbies. I’m honest, I’m not always up to it, interact with the problem cases. Maybe because too new and just wanna enjoy it for now, I’ve to deal with troubles all day at work and this needs to be relaxation.
That’s not only for you, also for the others members that are such great help to everyone. Just keep up the good work 👏🏻✌🏻✌🏻
 

Mountain Dragon

Chameleon Enthusiast
Sonny I have great respect for you. However sharing this in a forum with a bunch of Newbies is something that will back fire. While you may not see the outcome, for others that are New and read this it will be a green light for them to toss two Veileds in a cage together.

This was an experiment for you that did not go immediately wrong others may take that that as "it worked" and "it's safe".
Truth is it does not work. Chams will not only kill one another but they will establish dominance over another. This eventually kills one because the other is the dominant one in control of the cage. While there are certain species that live in family groups this has to still be done with care and a huge amount of space.

Second thing is you just cross contaminated your cage... So if Sonny does have a parasite load you just introduced that to Ranjo. And if you had not gotten Ranjo tested you just cross contaminated to Sonny as well. While some parasites are easy to treat. Some are absolutely not. Since you now have multiples you have to always take that into consideration. Some parasites like coccidia can take out a collection.

I want to make it clear that in NO way should any one co habitat chameleons. Same species or not. This is dangerous. And although they may not display immediate signs of stress this is something that is just not worth the risk.
😩 stop using the phone for writing messages on CF 😐
I only use the phone 😂
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
Becky (wasn’t it and if I may call you so?), you where completely correct about it, I already had difficulties sharing it, due this reason.
Because I thought and find there should reason to talk and discuss about it, especially here, I eventually did post and shared it with you, with the knowledge a would get a lot criticism. That I exacted completely.

It’s sounds now like an planned experiment and I’d like to emphasize it wasn’t. Just wanted shortly that Sonny could recharge his battery. And yes in the wild, they would experience the same, still I relativize it as with people. Someone who’s working at an office and suddenly needs to work all week long in the pouring rain without giving them a place to warm-up, most will catch a cold. Due the bad weather forecast I made this decision. That it eventually turned out this way was just collateral. And just don’t know what to think about it, If you would see it, it’s like the two have been living together for years. Maybe the only reason shared it, is that maybe someone says, “I’ve witnessed the same once, however for the long term it didn’t worked out”.
Like mentioned Sonny gets his own space today or tomorrow, still waiting for the Arcadia lights. Because I wanna keep free range in de largest space he can get, to become as huge as he can get. Therefore whatever the feedback will be from my sharing, it won’t change anything for my intentions.

Last thing, I respect you big time for the help and support you give to everyone, especially newbies. I’m honest, I’m not always up to it, interact with the problem cases. Maybe because too new and just wanna enjoy it for now, I’ve to deal with troubles all day at work and this needs to be relaxation.
That’s not only for you, also for the others members that are such great help to everyone. Just keep up the good work 👏🏻✌🏻✌🏻
It's Becca or Rebecca. Becky was the mean girl that mentally tortured others in school. :hilarious:

I do understand why you did it. I do totally get what your talking about too. I think it is hard because in the forum we have to be so focused on who else may read what we post. Even when I post I try not to shorten my response. I try to give all the details every time because it won't just be the person it was intended for reading it. Someone else or many others will as well.

I think you will find that the more your experience grows the more you alter your husbandry to fit your chams exactly. You rule out things others told you were fantastic or the "right way". I know I have. But my first 2 years I followed everything to the letter. This passed year that started to change though. Beman started showing issues with supplementation. I had to pivot off the recommended ones to something new. I have changed other things as well. I am not as much of a firm believer in fogging hydrating them now. At least not in the way we can do it with our cages. Its just not the same as fog in the wild. All my edits have made him healthier. But I do not sit and share the details because when people are new it just confuses them more. Also Beman has been with me a very long time now. With me working from home I have always had constant interaction with him to really watch and learn his behaviors. I know now really well how to read him and when something is not right. Newer members just do not understand the subtle differences in their chams behavior to know what is not working.

Not that I am saying cohabitation is the way of the future. I simply do not think our cages are large enough to do this successfully. Just that you will test stuff and take your opinions from that as you grow in the hobby. I like the way you think and I like how much you have dived in head first. You do what your chams need and provide them beautiful spaces to live. It is very apparent in everything you do that you really care. :)
 

Sonny13

Chameleon Enthusiast
It's Becca or Rebecca. Becky was the mean girl that mentally tortured others in school.
Hi Bully Becky..uhhh Rebecca, I'm Mark (Sonny is just my alter ego)

I do understand why you did it. I do totally get what your talking about too. I think it is hard because in the forum we have to be so focused on who else may read what we post. Even when I post I try not to shorten my response. I try to give all the details every time because it won't just be the person it was intended for reading it. Someone else or many others will as well.
It would be great if there was a closest section, where we could share and discus next level things, without the fear of someone will take disadvantage of it in behalf itself and not for the chams. Not shortening what I love about most of you, I think that's where my not native speaking comes in to play :cautious:

I think you will find that the more your experience grows the more you alter your husbandry to fit your chams exactly. You rule out things others told you were fantastic or the "right way". I know I have. But my first 2 years I followed everything to the letter. This passed year that started to change though. Beman started showing issues with supplementation. I had to pivot off the recommended ones to something new. I have changed other things as well. I am not as much of a firm believer in fogging hydrating them now. At least not in the way we can do it with our cages. Its just not the same as fog in the wild. All my edits have made him healthier. But I do not sit and share the details because when people are new it just confuses them more. Also Beman has been with me a very long time now. With me working from home I have always had constant interaction with him to really watch and learn his behaviors. I know now really well how to read him and when something is not right. Newer members just do not understand the subtle differences in their chams behavior to know what is not working.
We all experience the learning curve and most of us will never stop. Luckily I'm also working a lot from home last, therefore can constantly monitor their behaviour and learn from it. Also noticed troubles with supplementation, Bella react pretty fast on over-supplementing. I understand your thoughts about fogging and it's really situational, without fogging and the free range, I think I would have dehydration problem.

Not that I am saying cohabitation is the way of the future. I simply do not think our cages are large enough to do this successfully.
In general I dislike all standard fabric cages, due their too small dimensions, except the DS Atrium. Therefore I'm constantly overthinking things, for better solutions. Cohabitation same (size) species I 100% agree, no-go. For the mine option, I think almost no one can say something about, because there's literally no proof or records of. But still I'm not in to it, it just happened and made curious.

I like the way you think and I like how much you have dived in head first.
Thanks you very much for the compliment, I guess it has something to do with my profession as an engineer within the civil commercial diving industry, "it can't be done" is my core business for earning money. And as a former cave-, military-, and commercial diver it is 9 out of 10 times pioneering. So I guess it's in my blood.

You do what your chams need and provide them beautiful spaces to live. It is very apparent in everything you do that you really care.
Now you hit the soft spot 🥺, really appreciated 👏👏✌️
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
In general I dislike all standard fabric cages, due their too small dimensions, except the DS Atrium.
I agree. I loved my Atrium. Wished I could have kept it but basically impossible with the move being so freaking short notice. I have had Beman in a Medium Tall Atrium since he was about 6 months old. Same overall size as the 2x2x4 except it has an additional 6 inches in width for a total of 30 inches. I wish DS still sold this size option. It really is a step above the standard size and gives much more width to work with. I have better gradients with the wider space.
Hi Bully Becky..uhhh Rebecca, I'm Mark (Sonny is just my alter ego)
lol Girl in school that I hated. ;) Nice to officially meet you Mark.
It would be great if there was a closest section, where we could share and discus next level things, without the fear of someone will take disadvantage of it in behalf itself and not for the chams.
It would be cool. LOL a lot of us have private convos with one another. I still have people that I lean on for mentoring when something does not click right for me. It is good to have those you can trust to bounce your thought process off of.
 

Sonny13

Chameleon Enthusiast
lol Girl in school that I hated
🤣🤣🤣🤣 I thought and was assuming it would be you 🤣🤣🤣🤣 just kidding for the second part.

I agree. I loved my Atrium. Wished I could have kept it but basically impossible with the move being so freaking short notice. I have had Beman in a Medium Tall Atrium since he was about 6 months old. Same overall size as the 2x2x4 except it has an additional 6 inches in width for a total of 30 inches. I wish DS still sold this size option. It really is a step above the standard size and gives much more width to work with. I have better gradients with the wider space.
Love those cages, a shame we can’t get them to Europe, maybe a niche market 🤔🤔

It would be cool. LOL a lot of us have private convos with one another. I still have people that I lean on for mentoring when something does not click right for me. It is good to have those you can trust to bounce your thought process off of.
👍🏻👍🏻 Already had that feeling
 
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