Gravid Female Panther, looking sick and slow.

[BMXICAN]

I always forget to do this....

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Aluminum mesh cage from LLL. 1.5' x 1.5' x 2'.
Lighting - Reptisun 5.0 bulb when inside, usually natural sunlight.
Temperature - Temperature in the day goes from 70° to 90°. At night temperature drops around 65° indoors.
Humidity - Outdoor humidity is usually 40%. I mist cages at least 3 times daily if not more.
Plants - Ficus tree.
Location - Cage is in my computer room on a table. During the sunny days, she is outdoor and I try to keep her isolated from the rest of my chams so she has privacy.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Blue bar ambilobe, year old. Was a virgin when I got her. She was gravid around 11/9 after mating for a few days.
Handling - Not often since she's been preggy.
Feeding - She was eating until she got pregnant. Last time I saw her really eat was a superworm two weeks ago. I offer ald leave food in her cage, and remove it at night, uneaten.
Supplements - Mineral 0, Herpevite Multivitamins, Calcium with no D3 and ocasionally the T-Rex with Vitamin A and D3 (twice a month).
Watering - I mist the cages at least 3 times a day with warm water. I use to see her drink, but in the last few days, I haven't seen her drink.
Fecal Description - No parasite tests to my knowledge. Her poop from yesterday is small, the feces looks normal but small and the urate looks the same size as the feces with an orangish tint to it. Not runny.
History - Only had her for a month, sorry. I know she is CBB.
Current Problem - Her eyes look sunken, I suspect dehydration.

Phew... OK! So this is Dory. I just wanted to add that I gave her a warm shower this morning and she drank some water, but not much. Ocasionally she gapes if I get too close and I'll spray a little water down her mouth.

I'm just really worries, because no food and no water can't be good for her or her babies. What can I do to help her out? I saw her around the laying bin yesterday but she crawled back up the tree.

Any help is much appreciated! Thanks!

PS: The first two picture is her right before she mated on 11/7 and after she mated on 11/9. The last three are of today.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

I would say it isn't dehydration. It looks like she is going to pop, she is going to progressively go downhill if she doesn't lay soon. She is drawing her eyes back because she doesn't feel well, not because of dehydration. Do you have a laying area? and what is it?

Also, supplementation could use a little adjustment but not the root of the problem right now.

-chris

 

[smyth]

this is the exact same situation i was in with my female cham about a month ago, she was eggbound and this is why her eyes were sunken as she was drinking plenty of water and as i didnt kno chams eyes sunk for other reasons other than dehydration ( yer im stupid) i just thought she wasnt gettin enuff water and kept sprayin her and she kept drinkin after a while she did stop drinkin and i decided to take her to the vets where i was told she was eggbound, i would take ur girl to the vets asap maybe he can give her something to help pass the eggs.

 

[Chameleons Canada]

Hi BMexican,

Is she wondering at the bottom of the cage? I had a similar situation last week (my female didn't have her eyes sunken though) , my female eat very little during the month she was gravid, she showed a bit of an edema and the last few days she was montionless and going to sleep earlier than normal. On friday morning I put her on a laying bin and bang! that did the trick, she laid 22eggs. Now she is back to normal, eating well, edema is gone and is getting better. To see the bin I used, please see this thread: "Egg Laying Bin" posted today. I hope it helps.

 

[BMXICAN]

I see...
Maybe I should keep her outside but with tons of privacy.
I just changed her bin to a much deeper (16 inch tall) pot. Hopefully she will lay soon. Thanks for the info!

 

[smyth]

with her eyes sunken like that its not a good sign i think leavin it any longer to lay on her own may result in her gettin worse, you shud get her to a vets asap. i just dont want to see some1 go thru what i went thru thats all i ended up losing my cham.

 

[smyth]

lol u didnt even acknowledge what i said !

 

[BMXICAN]

Hi BMexican,

Is she wondering at the bottom of the cage? I had a similar situation last week (my female didn't have her eyes sunken though) , my female eat very little during the month she was gravid, she showed a bit of an edema and the last few days she was montionless and going to sleep earlier than normal. On friday morning I put her on a laying bin and bang! that did the trick, she laid 22eggs. Nos she is back to normal, eating well, edema is gone and is getting better. To see the bin I used, please see this thread: "Egg Laying Bin" posted today. I hope it helps.

Yeah, I just put her in the bin a few times so she knows it's there. The pot has a good size lip over the dirt so she has tons of privacy in it. But she just crawls to the top and clibs to the neighboring ficus, goes to the top and basks.

BTW, the sun just came out here (it mas muggy earlier) and I put all the chams including her outside and she has been at the top perching spot, just basking in the sun and awake.

It's been 22 days of gestation then right? I read that panthers can go all the way close to 30 days, correct?

Thanks for the help guys, hopefully she lays soon then...

 

[BMXICAN]

lol u didnt even acknowledge what i said !

I don't know how to get "multiple" quotes on one message, therefore being hard for me to respond to multiple things. That would make it easier for me to remember what I just read on the last page. HAHA, sorry, wasn't trying to be rude.

Obviously a trip to the vet is always the best choice. Before doing so, I thought I might ask for opinions before I spend X amount of cash that I really don't have (but am more than willing to spend on her), if I can remedy the situation my changing something maybe I screwed up or what not.

Anyway, thanks for the response Smyth.

 

[kinyonga]

The sunken eyes really bother me. I think that if you don't get her to the vets NOW she won't make it. They don't give you much warning of impending death in this situation. Just my opinion....

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

The sunken eyes really bother me. I think that if you don't get her to the vets NOW she won't make it. They don't give you much warning of impending death in this situation. Just my opinion....

I thought the same thing. I kept looking and looking at those eyes in the last photos. Last time we had a cham with eyes like that we took it to the vet.

 

[BMXICAN]

Cool. Sounds like vet it is. I'll call and make an appointment. Thanks.

 

[BMXICAN]

Vet suggestions anyone?

Got an appointment for tomorrow at 4pm. That's the soonest I could get... Hopefully she'll hold on until tomorrow. This is the place I'm going, someone from LLL recommended it. If you guys have any suggestions of vets or a better vet, I'd love to hear it.

Discovery Valley Animal Hospital
Lee Young D.V.M.
997 W. San Marcos Blvd. Suite #102A
San Marcos, CA 92078
(760)744-0032

Thanks!

 

[BMXICAN]

Grim day...

Well, I took her in....
Dr. Young was a real cool guy, real knowledgeable and nice.
He told me that she would honestly not make it through surgery and he suggested that it was in her best interest to be euthanized.

It was a real hard choice, but shortly after he lest the room to leave me to think, she started gaping her mouth, bubbles coming out and started to do the same things my jackson babies did when they die: spit their toungue out and open their mouths really wide.

So in short, she has been put to rest. The doc told me he would perform a necropsy on her tomorrow to see what went wrong and to check her for eggs. He said he would call me tomorow...

On a side note, he felt her belly and he said it didn't feel like she had eggs. He said it felt like she might have had something lodged in her intestinal track. I guess I'll find out tomorrow...

Thanks to anyone who helped out...

Here is Dory, minutes before her last breath. RIP Dory.

 

[Chameleonboy]

I am sorry for your loss. You did the best you could and that is what matters.

R.I.P. Dory

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I am so sorry to hear of your loss. It's never easy. I stood in the vet's office holding a cham just like that just a few weeks ago. Even the vet's assistant got teary eyed. The vet was very apologetic, but what could she do?

He went downhill unexpectedly. He was a LTC we got from someone else and that we were working with. I think he had had several previous owners. He is the one whose eyes looked like your cham's when I took him into the vet. I didn't want to say it in my last post, but we had the exact same result you had. A euthanized chameleon. He was a trooper too. We thought he was going to make it but he had too much bad history behind him.

The vet knows herps and took some time to teach me a few interesting things. She also outlined a course of treatment she could try, but said very plainly she thought it would just prolong his suffering. That the most humane thing to do was to euthanize him.

Well, your little girl Dory will rest in peace. You did the right thing taking her to the vet. And it will give you more peace of mind knowing you did all you could do.

Please let us know if there is anything to report from the necropsy.

If there are eggs, you know you can try to save the eggs.

 

[BMXICAN]

Update on necropsy

Doctor just called me. He finished examining her.
Source of the problem was eggs not forming and egg yolk flooded her uterus and later into her stomach. He said there was nothing I could have done or that he could have done.

Anyone ever had this problem? What can I do to avoid it next time (I have another female panther)?

I'm really bummed...

PS: Thanks Sandy, Chameleonboy and everyone else.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I would ask Kinyonga, who seems to be very learned concerning reproductive matters.

All I seem to remember is that if they get egg bound (which can happen for many reasons) then the eggs can rupture and infection set in. But if her eggs were still developing, then I don't think she would have been considered egg bound. Don't know.

 

[BMXICAN]

I would ask Kinyonga, who seems to be very learned concerning reproductive matters.

All I seem to remember is that if they get egg bound (which can happen for many reasons) then the eggs can rupture and infection set in. But if her eggs were still developing, then I don't think she would have been considered egg bound. Don't know.

Yeah, she never even made eggs from what it appears. She just got filled with egg yolk. The doctor said he has seen it before in other lizards.

 

[kinyonga]

BMXICAN...I'm sorry you lost your chameleon. Its not easy losing one.

As for reproduction and problems similar to this....I'm not clear on all of this yet...maybe one of the vets on here can correct me if I don't get it right??

Normally...follicles form in the ovaries. They go through a process called vitellogenesis where the yolk is added. Next they detach themselves from the ovaries (ovulate) and move into the oviduct where the egg white (albumin) and shell is added. From this point they should be laid.

For some reason the follicular stasis (an interruption in the development) can occur. I know that it can be husbandry issues that cause this sometimes but there are other things that cause it too. (This is what I have to learn more about.) If the follicles stay in stasis and are not reabsorbed or removed surgically then they can form a large mass of yolk which can lead to an infection/inflammation and eventually will die.

Stasis can also occur after the eggs have ovulated. One example of it is dystocia (eggbinding). It can be caused by physical reasons (deformities, fused eggs, etc.) or from husbandry issues. The chameleon might get through this if its given injections of calcium and oxytocin...depending on the timing, etc. However, if there is a physical reason giving the chameleon may cause rupture, etc. if you give the chameleon the calcium and oxytocin. Dystocia often has to be dealt with by "spaying". (Don't know if that's the term for lizards or not!)

Don't forget...I'm not a vet and this is just what I have read/learned and I'm not 100% sure I have it all right....expecially since it has been studied/written about more in other lizards than in chameleons.

Dr. Wheelock...can you comment on this please??