FYI on quad eggs

[pamnsam94]

Just thought I would share my last two experiences with T. q. quadricornis eggs.

16 eggs laid on 11/28/11;
10 eggs hatched on 4/30/12 (two other eggs deflated that day but failed to hatch; one of them had a very small slit but apparently both the neonates in those two eggs were simply too weak to cut their way out and died);
2 eggs hatched on 5/1/11;
1 egg hatched today (5/2/12) but the neonate has a severely kinked tail;
the last egg is in the process of hatching now (I've never seen this before but the egg has slits at both ends);
the incubation medium was 100% vermiculite (an equal amount (by weight) of RO water was mixed with the vermiculite; the container was about 1/4 full with the mixture;
the incubation container was a Glad food container (approximately 9" x 9"); no holes were put in the container; it was simply put in a room that stays around 70F year round and covered with a black cloth; very infrequently (about once a month) the eggs were checked on an the lid was opened; however around 4 1/2 months, they were checked more frequently (a few times a week); all 16 eggs laid went full term; the eggs had light brown spots which differed from other clutches I've had where the eggs were totally white; also kind of interesting is that when these eggs sweated, they did not have very visible beads/droplets of water on them

On another note, the mother was given a drop of pre-formed vitamin A once a month. With the last clutch of quad eggs I had (different female) the mother did not get preformed vitamin A; all of her eggs were dropped over a 5 day time period from where she was perched despite having suitable egg deposition sites. The eggs were fully calcified and all white (they actually looked better than this most recent clutch). I incubated them the same as this clutch. Most of them went bad from 3 to 4 1/2 months. Surprisingly though, when I cut the eggs open, there was no embryo and no sign of vascularization at all. The one remaining egg (out of 10 total) made it to just under 5 months then went bad. I opened it up expecting nothing but that egg had a fully formed baby. Apparently, it was just too weak to emerge. That experience plus some info I read on panther chameleon egg viability is what made me decide to try preformed vitamin A on the mother of this most recent clutch.

Perry

 

[Hoj]

Great Post!!!

 

[maxttu]

Excellent post! What about pics of the lil ones??

 

[laurie]

That is really good info. But babies hatched in April, this is 5/5 and still no pictures? That comes under torture in the geneva convention.

 

[pamnsam94]

I still haven't taken many pics of the babies (I'll definitely take more soon), but here are a few. Since vermiculite sticks to the babies pretty badly, I moved a couple of slit eggs out of the incubation container onto recently expanded coco fiber to take video and still pics. I don't want any of you to think I incubated the eggs on a wet medium.

The first pic is sadly one of the babies that died, with half the egg cut away. It was apparently too weak to make it out of the egg. Amazing how tightly packed they are in their eggs! The egg only had a single slit that was only about 1/16" long.

The only other egg out of the 16 that didn't make it had no slits at all. In the past, I had a baby die with only his head sticking out. That was two clutches ago. All the eggs in that clutch went full term and all died without hatching. Very disappointing. Most of them simply shrunk without slitting. Others had slit to various degrees but did not emerge, and the one mentioned died with his head sticking out.

Experiences like the last two clutches made me revisit the whole pre-formed vitamin A (retinol) issue. So, before this clutch was laid, I decided to give the mother one drop of preformed vitamin A a month rather than rely on beta carotene.

As many have pointed out, it is not known if chameleons can convert beta carotene to pre-formed vitamin A at all, let alone in adequate amounts.

There are too many variables to know if giving the mother retinol helped 14 out of 16 neonates hatch with this clutch, but I believe a small amount of preformed vitamin A given occasionally to the adults (especially gravid females) won't hurt.

I've read that there are many more documented cases of hypovitamitosis A than hypervitamintosis A (vets have measured low levels of vitamin A in chameleons much more frequently than too much vitamin A).

In general, in my experience and in reading about others', I believe vitamin D3 is more frequently overdosed than is preformed vitamin A and it is that overdose that more frequently causes organ malfunction leading to a gular edema.

Most of my experience over the last 25 years has been with montane species and I'm always humbled by the successes of newcomers to the hobby, so I'll simply say that my thoughts and tenative conclusions on vitamin A (and D3) are simply that, tenative or temporary. I'm sure I'll be modifying my beliefs sometime soon. That's what great about this forum. Always something new to learn.

In the mid 80s when I started keeping chameleons (T. johnstoni mostly) the internet wasn't available and information on chameleon care was sparse. I visited many libraries and even called zoos trying to gain knowledge. A curator of reptiles at one zoo advised me to incubate my first clutch of johnstoni eggs at 80 to 85F. Needless to say, those eggs didn't hatch.

Thankfully, I came across info from the Oklahoma City zoo and their successes with various species. Then I subscribed to the Chameleon Information Network around the time when the issue concerning vitamin A overdose came out.

The information and conclusions drawn from those early issues of the Chameleon Information Network, from what I understand, led manufacturers of reptile supplements to replace retinol with beta carotene as the source of vitamin A. The problem is that some reptiles are known to convert beta carotene to retinol but the jury is still out on other reptiles (and amphibians).

From the time of receiving my first issue of the C.I.N., I've been intrigued by the whole vitamin A/vit D3 subject, but unfortunately, I too often put all of my eggs in one basket so to speak, treating all the hatchlings in a given clutch the same way, the way I think will be best for all of them instead of doing controlled experiments with each of the neonates. Had I done the latter, I would have probably learned more by now. Still though, failures eventually lead to successes. Sorry for the back story. Once I get going, I can really rabbit trail.

There are way too many variables to draw any definitive conclusions, but I'll be more of a believer in the importance of retinol if I have some success with these babies. I plan on giving them very small amounts of this important vitamin occasionally. The big question is "What amount and what frequency?".

The second picture is one I took while I was taking video of the hatching process. That neonate is the only one with a deformity (a severely twisted/kinked tail). Fortunately, he seems healthy otherwise. Back around 1995 or '96, I had a clutch hatch and many of the young had severe deformities (no eyes, missing feet, etc.). Very sad. It was amazing they managed to hatch at all.

The third picture is of the same individual. Unlike the others, he had yolk attached upon his emergence. In the photo, you can see his kinked tail. I'll post pics of the other babies when I get a chance to take more.

And finally, the 14th baby hatched today. It hatched from the egg I mentioned in one of my other posts. It came from the egg that had slits at both ends. Anyone experience this before? First time I've seen it myself.

Perry

 

[coldbloodedAL]

Congratulations and thank you for sharing yoir experiences. Did you have any success with johnstoni?

 

[Chase]

Did these eggs come from a WC or CH/CB female?

Chase

 

[pamnsam94]

The eggs were from a LTC WC female. She was bred to one of my two LTC WC males.

 

[pamnsam94]

I hatched multiple clutches of the johnstoni but wasn't successful raising the neonates. So, no, unfortunately I wasn't successful, but I do think I learned a lot from them. The adults however I kept for years. I love that species and would like to work with them again. I particularly remember how stong of a grip they had and how most of them didn't seem to show any fear of me. One clutch I had was doing fine with houseflies I raised. Then, I made a mistake. I fed them unsupplemented commercially fed crickets. The next day, they developed edema. I don't know what the cricket supplier I used fed their crickets but I know that some feeds have both preformed vitamin A and vitamin D3. I fed the crickets to the babies the day I got the crickets in the mail. Big mistake. After the babies developed the edema, their growth was severely stunted and they ended up dying due to what I believe was permanent organ damage.

 

[Chase]

The eggs were from a LTC WC female. She was bred to one of my two LTC WC males.

Did you have any pre-breeding supplementing regiments that the female was on to prepare her for the gestation? I'm just curious as to how you did it for my own notes.

Chase

 

[pamnsam94]

Chase,

Unfortunately, I did not write down any notes on supplements or frequency. In general though, I supplement with pure calcium (no D3) approximately every third or fourth feeding. Feeder insects eat turnip greens, dandelion greens and sometimes collard greens one day prior to being fed. Once the female quads are bred, I like to give them pure calcium (no D3) every feeding to every other feeding. One drop of preformed vitamin A is given once a month. I use Mega Ray 100W self-ballasted mercury vapor lamps with the adults to provide UVB.

I really wish I would have taken detailed notes (especially in regards to supplementation) over the years. People get new ideas all the time and are largely learning through trial and error. If all of us took better notes, I'm sure our overall knowledge on various species would be more advanced.