Designing a Vivarium Controller: What features/price do YOU want?

[EvilLost]

Hey all,

In building a "high end" enclosure for my panther, I have been researching controllers.....and they are lacking....severely.


Please educate me if I am missing anything but our options are....

1) Ecozone (VERY pricy)
2) Various REEF controllers (also pricy and not specifically designed for our use)
3) Individual controllers per unit (lighting timer, pump timer, thermoterer, etc).



Due to this issue, I have been looking into designing a more useful vivarium controller that is more of a "mid-market" price point. Currently things like the ECOZONE are awesome, but the price is just absurd imho (and probably partly due to the complete lack of competition).



Long story short, I have been working with a friend recently in possibly designing a mid-level vivarium controller for use in frog, chameleon, and other vivaria...

I would like your feedback on features, price points, and the like that would interest you.

Currently, I am working with the following considerations:
-Temp/humidity probes
-Multiple (4?) power outlets
-INDIVIDUALLY programmable dimmable timers (to the 1 second) for EACH outlet.
-Water/humidity proof casing

Other considerations:
-Wifi?
-LCD/LED screen?
-Remote control / Internet controls

I am looking at 2 initial models, "basic" (price point) and "everything" (performance)


QUESTIONS FOR THE HOBBYISTS THAT WOULD USE VIVARIUM CONTROLLERS:

1) What do you consider to be *NECESSARY* features (ie things the "basic" model MUST have)?

2) How important is a DISPLAY on the unit? Is a visual showing of current temp/humidity(/time?) really worthwhile for everyday use? I realize the benefit of a screen when PROGRAMMING the unit, however this aside, is there really any benefit to it?

3) Do you need to CHANGE the programming often? (I am assuming it would be, roughly, a set once and forget it kind of thing).

3a) Does it matter to you HOW you program it? (If you have to use your computer, use LEDs/buttons on the device itself, use an LCD on the device, etc). ***This can affect the final cost substantially and is why I ask in conjunction with question 3. If a drop in price is worth a tiny headache in programming since you only do it once as I am assuming, it seems to be worth the price drop.

4) HOW MANY outlets do you typically need for *ONE* enclosure? I am currently assuming 1 water, 1 power. I realize chameleon enclosures in specific tend to have 2 lights; do most of you need 3 outlets?

5) What price point would be reasonable for a "basic" or "everything" model? I am currently aiming/hoping for roughly $139 and $199....are these still too high to warrant their use?

6) 1 vivarium controller per enclosure is my current design. Is this foolish? I am looking at high-end large-scale vivs that would need to be individually controlled, but that is simply what I work with. Those of you with LARGE frog or chameleon (or w/e) rooms....do you have any desire for a master controller or somesuch? What controls (consistent factors) do you have among your tanks (generally, I would guess sunrise/sunset/humidity/etc would be mostly the same, at least on a per-species level). What factors are DIFFERENT / unique to each individual tank that would not/should not be controlled by a master controller? How beneficial is the modular ability to add additional temp/humidity probes?

7) How important is a built-in DIMMING function / timer ? To me, this is essential...but perhaps it is not necessary for a "basic" model?

8) Would it be plausible to require a 24/7 always on PC connection for the unit to work properly? Or would such a requirement be a "deal breaker"? One consideration currently is to have the entire unit controlled and programmed by the PC, but this would require a PC that is always on and always connected to the unit to receive/analyze the data.

9) Are there any SPECS in particular that are of high importance? If so, please tell me the spec and WHY it is of importance. Minimum voltage/amperage requirements, types of dimming signals, etc etc.

10) For those who do have experience with other vivarium controllers (ESPECIALLY reef-controllers or high-end viv controllers such as the Ecozone) can you tell me the best and (more importantly) WORST features of these controllers? What are they doing wrong or simply not doing that they SHOULD be doing?

11) Lastly, would you feel comfortable/better/worse if you had to use your COMPUTER to program it? What about to monitor it? This is a very important question.


Thanks for the input all!


Please direct any private questions or comments to me via PM or email me at [email protected], but I would appreciate all comments openly on this thread


PS: those of you who run breeding colonies/ very large scale operations can you please tell me to the degree of specificity that you currently monitor your tanks and how you do it ? Is a 1degree temperature variance acceptable, or can it be larger or smaller?

 

[Zen Reptiles]

A dimmer-per-outlet, or per set (4 & 4), would be the best feature IMO.

1 controller per enclosure would be practical for 90% of the market who only have one pet chameleon. However, I would be on the market for 1 controller doing 4 enclosures.

I would need 4 heat and 4 UVB = 8 outlets. I would want to be able to at least program each set of 4....so if one side had 4 outlets for UVB, I would like to control that to go on for most of the day and turn off at the end of the day....very basic.

The 4 outlets for heat I would want more features for. I would like to control the heat to intensify throughout the day....say pumping out enough watts to increase from 75F - 90F from 9am-11am, and then get up to 100F-105F at 12pm-1pm, and then go back down slowly to 75F-85F throughout the rest of the day...then shut off or somehow just be dim enough to mimic moonlight throughout the night....based on the 28 day moon cycle.

That would be very cool.

Those would be the features I would want on a basic model, at a pricepoint of $50-$100 depending how many other features are on it.



My misting is on its own timer, and even if I had 70 cages the misting would be on its own timer; not a central controller. However if there was a 9th independent outlet on the controller with a seconds timer etc then I would use it. But usually my misting system is out of the way and would need its own outlet anyways.

If it had a 9th outlet and wasn't using it for misting, I would use that as a moonlight outlet so one string of LED lights could do 4 cages, thus only using the 9th outlet. Or I'd use it as a computer-fan outlet with 4 fans on one line.

Or round it up to 10 so I can do both

 

[EvilLost]

Excellent reply, thank you. That is exactly the type of information I am looking for.

In regards to the 1-to-many chameleon problem, I am considering that but no good solutions yet. I wish to minimize the number of outlets to the number of timers necessary for cost (so in your example, 2 "sets"). I am looking at options for upping the number of outlets independent of the base product.

I had considered dimming for the lights, but not for the heat; I will add that to my list of considerations.


EDIT: humidity too I guess...

 

[chamguy]

1) Necessary features- ( basic) lighting, and water( misting).

2) Screen display- I think it is very important when showing current heat, humidity, ect. It would even be nice to include 2 temp probes, 1 for basking, and 1 for the cage. I would also be nice to show the highest temp and lowest it has been.

3) Knowing me, I would be playing with it everyday , but i think it would be forgotten about for most people.

3) a- I dont really think it matters how you program it. I bought a cheap auto fish feeder from petco for a little experiment of mine and it's programing was supriseingly advanced for its price.

4) # of outlets? I'd say 4. ( not includeing the probs)

5) Price? Depending on how advanced it is- I wouldnt pay more than 200(unless it was master controled)
$130 is a great price for something such as this.

6) I would say bot are great ideas depending on how much you would like to invest. there are some people that only have 2 or 3 tanks who wouldnt want to pay 300 for a master control.

Check out green house controls, they may give you some ideas.

http://www.arguscontrols.com/

7) I think the control of photoperiod is one of the most important, being able to simulate seasons. This way it could reduce the amount of light each day to match the exact season. But an actual "dimmer" i dont think is as important to be included. This could be attached to the outlet ( sold seperately).

8) Being controled by a pc would be great so you can monitor your set up from elsewhere, but I would not make it required. YOu could make it some how benificial by having your own program made specifcally for the vivarium controller, but dont make it required. It could run with out.

9.) cant really think of any right now. What do you exactly mean by "specs"?

10) I don't have experince except my own designs I have made.

_________________________________________________________________

This may be more for amphibians but most people already have their misters, but you could include a humidifier to the outlet and have it turn on when it gets to low.
Also as mentioned, some people use "moon lighting" for at night. I'm not sure if this would come on right after "sunset" or later into the night.

 

[EvilLost]

7) I think the control of photoperiod is one of the most important, being able to simulate seasons. This way it could reduce the amount of light each day to match the exact season. But an actual "dimmer" i dont think is as important to be included. This could be attached to the outlet ( sold seperately).

its not as easy as it may seem to just "add" a timer like that. I would need to have an entirely independent unit in that case, which is what I am trying to avoid...which is why i am looking at doing a basic vs advanced unit

8) Being controled by a pc would be great so you can monitor your set up from elsewhere, but I would not make it required. YOu could make it some how benificial by having your own program made specifcally for the vivarium controller, but dont make it required. It could run with out.

As I am going for a mid-point unit, I am not even considering the "option" of various controls as the amount of added development cost there is immense. The question basically comes down to: do you program it directly on the unit, or do you program it via your PC? Providing multiple means is, at best, far down the road.

There are other costs/benefits to both, but overall I have to "pick" one. Also, being controlled by a PC does not imply wifi compatibility as that would incur even more development costs...as of now, I'm putting that on the backburner as a "luxury" option and not necessary.

9.) cant really think of any right now. What do you exactly mean by "specs"?

I mean ..specs? For example, whether there are minimum power outputs needed or certain unique/different/abnormal needs for anything. Things like the 1-second timer for misting or other minute technical details.



The issue of moonlighting or whatever is somewhat irrelevant to me as it is considered a "timed lighting" issue. However, I do note that its existence means a 3rd set of timers/sockets needed.

I am also looking into alarm/sensors triggers or switches based on min/max temps/humidity so that the system will auto run once a certain min/max temp is passed....the software is not too much an issue, but costs and appropriate hardware is another matter.


Its easy to say one would love all these features for a tiny pricetag, but each thing tacks on more and more. The value of each feature has to be carefully considered....and so I am trying to distinguish between NECESSARY, PREFERRED, and LUXURY options, so to speak.

 

[chamguy]

well I was thinking in general as far as something for the market, something for yourself will be another story. Some other vivarium controllers are hooked up to a server that is on 24/7. I am not a computer geek, but I believe you could find a cheap tower and modify it. At least that is what I am working towards.


Also what would be the purpose of a dimmer? simulateing morning and sunset? I was just thinking for the option to dim it yourself. In that case it should be included. It would be nice to have it on each outlet, not sure how that would work.

are you looking to market a new unit? or make one for yourself? From some of your questions it seems like the first.

 

[Whatcamo]

1) multiple temp and humidity monitoring probes
2)Yes being able to check out params from the monitor is very convenient
3)There are always variables that will cause needed changes to the programming
3a) once again a convenience thing which is a seller to be able to change programming while in front of the controller
4) I would say minimum of 4 outlets with the ability to expand through a aquabus cable for more controllable outlets
5) fair price range maybe even higher would be fair if it included all probes etc.
6)I believe a master unit that could be added onto such as probes and outlets would always be more benificial as in one controller with multiple controllable probes/outlets because we all end up getting more or adding more enclosures
7)Maybe be nice as a add on feature
8) if it had to be constantly hOoked up to a pc there'd be no way I'd purchase it
9)I think a break out box for float valve to automatically empty drainage buckets and to auto top off water resivors would be a great seller but this would be a great add on feature!
10) I use a Apex controller on my reef tank it does everything and when I say everything I mean everything from water changes to auto top off to monitoring/adding additives!
I would highly suggest checking out neptune aquatics and modeling stuff after that system!
11)I think you should be able to monitor and program it both ways!

 

[summoner12]

When setting up automation for a vivarium I am not sure why anyone considers anything other than the EcoZone. $350 dollars with a humidity probe, for what the unit can do is an insane deal.

check out my thread about the unit. https://www.chameleonforums.com/eco-zone-vivarium-control-36446/

By the time you get a herpkeeper setup similar to an EcoZone, you'll have spent more money and it won't even do the same stuff or do similar tasks as well as the EcoZone does.... They don't even have all the features available that they claim to have....

Don't waste your time building one or buying other stuff. Trust me... been there, done that, not worth it. I try to automate everything, and i've spent hundreds.. if not thousands of dollars on my gear. Learn from my mistakes lol. EcoZone is where it is at, bottom line.

 

[ktravelet]

it would be a really neat feature to have some kind of light sensor. When the sun comes out the lights go on, when it goes down the lights turn off. This would take care of the seasons.

 

[BugCatcher]

I have a background in the reef aquarium hobby and am quite familier with a few of the controllers available on the market. For me I have always liked the Aquacontroller more than most as it gives the options to expand the unit. This is a must for me.

I would be more interested in a unit that can monitor and control more than 1 enclosure. although this is not what most of the market would be interested in I don't believe.

Having multiple temp and humidity probes is a must and would like to see the ability to measure a minimum of 4 temp and 4 RH seprate from each other. Havenng these included with the unit in not necessary but the option to add them to keep cost down.

A minimum of 4 controlled outlets is a must. Again with the ability to add more controlled outlets to the unit. (See Aquacontroller website).

Having an LCD screen is not a deal breaker for me but having to have it connected to a computer to run the unit is. I would not be opposed to have to set it up via a computer. The option to monitor via a computer is a feature I would want though. Having a setup similar to the EcoZone and Aquacontroller. It doe not have to be WiFi but that would be a nice feature.

Having a dimmable feature is nice because you would be able to run this on the basking lights. To run this on your UVB lights I believe there is more to it than just being able to vary the voltage going to the ballast. Dimmable flourescent ballasts tend to be quite expensive.

 

[chamguy]

it would be a really neat feature to have some kind of light sensor. When the sun comes out the lights go on, when it goes down the lights turn off. This would take care of the seasons.

I like this idea. I dont know why I didnt think of it earlier.

 

[summoner12]

it would be a really neat feature to have some kind of light sensor. When the sun comes out the lights go on, when it goes down the lights turn off. This would take care of the seasons.

This is pretty simple if all you need is lights on and lights off.. only issue is where you place the sensor so that you don't get shadows from you home or trees or whatever is near and tall that could block the light.

Just a trip to home depot and about $30 and your set.

 

[Zen Reptiles]

The EcoZone is pretty damn pricy. Is it worth it?

I would prefer something that does /most/ of the features but for cheaper, since I would have to buy 3-4 of them, I could make due without the misting and humidity control.

Edit: redirecting questions to another thread.

 

[summoner12]

The EcoZone is pretty damn pricy. Is it worth it?

I would prefer something that does /most/ of the features but for cheaper, since I would have to buy 3-4 of them, I could make due without the misting and humidity control.

Edit: redirecting questions to another thread.

Not pricey for what you get. It does so much as a whole without having to be expanded, with value is much greater than a modular system.

 

[BugCatcher]

Not pricey for what you get. It does so much as a whole without having to be expanded, with value is much greater than a modular system.

Id have to agree. Compare an EcoZone to one of the aquarium controllers they are actually cheaper or about the same price. Now they arent the exact same thing but when it really comes down to it they are doing the same things just monitoring different things.

 

[EvilLost]

Not pricey for what you get. It does so much as a whole without having to be expanded, with value is much greater than a modular system.

@summoner12: ...what? how can you claim that the value in an ecozone is "greater than a modular system" ? Unless you are using EVERY single feature, you have paid for things that you are not using, and have lost value in the item.


you seem to really like the Ecozone...what alternatives have you looked at/ considered? I fully admit it has a ton of options, but I am a little shocked that you think its a good VALUE for the price; I could not possibly disagree more....in my opinion you are paying a premium price for a premium item. The pricing on their additional probes is pretty ridiculous though, $58 for a probe? Really? Basic temp probe hardware can be purchased for as little as $2...humidity probes around the same...even if you consider other development costs and the fact that they are combined, $58 still feels like a luxury markup to me.


Also, my intent / goal is not to re-create an Ecozone. They have a fantastic high-end product for the high-end market; I am aiming to determine the necessary features for a solid, mid-level product. I have no intent of wasting development time on things like "storm simulation" or the like...

 

[JackP308]

I really don't think EcoZone is that pricey either for what it can do. $350 is worth it to me just regulating temps and humidity ,misting , and light cycling all in one. If I could pay less sure Id like to but Im not going to compromise the quality for money. My animals cost to much to go cheap on things that are vital to them. If Im relying on automation I want the most quality efficient controller that is going to last and be accurate. Nothing special just something that works and works good for what we use them for.

 

[summoner12]

@summoner12: ...what? how can you claim that the value in an ecozone is "greater than a modular system" ? Unless you are using EVERY single feature, you have paid for things that you are not using, and have lost value in the item.


you seem to really like the Ecozone...what alternatives have you looked at/ considered? I fully admit it has a ton of options, but I am a little shocked that you think its a good VALUE for the price; I could not possibly disagree more....in my opinion you are paying a premium price for a premium item. The pricing on their additional probes is pretty ridiculous though, $58 for a probe? Really? Basic temp probe hardware can be purchased for as little as $2...humidity probes around the same...even if you consider other development costs and the fact that they are combined, $58 still feels like a luxury markup to me.


Also, my intent / goal is not to re-create an Ecozone. They have a fantastic high-end product for the high-end market; I am aiming to determine the necessary features for a solid, mid-level product. I have no intent of wasting development time on things like "storm simulation" or the like...

The value is in that it has everything you will need, and then some. Sure, you could buy a proportioned heat control device somewhere, if that is all you needed and place them on your cage, but by the time you put four of them together, such as the ecozone, you'd have spent more money and NOT have the neat features of, web access, email alerts, min/max/current temp log... and those are basic features of the ecozone, which are always evolving and upgrading.

I would like you to explain the value in the herpkeeper.

As for what products i've tried... I've run the gamut of automation. I know when I see a good product.

The probes are $58 because it can be saturated with water, dry out and work properly again. It also has a built in heat probe in the humidity probe. If you can find the sort of probe somewhere else for $2, I'd like to see it. The heat probe is $19. It is water tight.

Yes, the EcoZone is a premium product. Would you buy a Mercedes Benz to drive to work when all you have the money for is a Kia? Most likely not, so I don't see someone on a budget buying an EcoZone or a herpkeeper. If you are looking to compare apples to oranges, you will obviously not see the value in the item. BUT if you are looking at apples to "apples" the value is in the EcoZone and not the Herpkeeper.

The tech that goes into the EcoZone is also greater than the others. There is alot more logic going on in the EcoZone. It is a very specialized product. It is a lot more value compared to the other similar products. Automation isn't cheap, and automation is a luxury.

You also have to keep in mind that the EcoZone was developed by a guy in northern CA, product is made in the USA and is developed specifically for herps. The HerpKeeper is rebranded aquatic product made in china and not meant to function for herp keeping, it is just rebranded product. I would see a lot of value in knowing that tidbit.

If you want to turn on and off lights, buy a $10 timer from Target..... or if your on a budget, try Walmart, but I dunno the prices there cause I don't shop at Walmart.

 

[Chadbot]

Maybe something you could consider is having an expandable number of plugs. One timer/controller unit has 4 output channels, each output channel handles 4 outlets (meaning up to 16 outlets controlled in groups of 4). The base model comes with the generic 4 channel controller and one set of 4 plugs taking up the first channel.

Then sets of 4 plugs can be bought and connected to the power supply/control unit on their own channel as the keepers needs increase. That way they just need to order another set of outlets, plug them in, and be done. Seems pretty modular to me.

Also, screens for programming are nice, but having dipswitches for on/off would probably be easier (and cheaper).

 

[EvilLost]

Yes, the EcoZone is a premium product. Would you buy a Mercedes Benz to drive to work when all you have the money for is a Kia? Most likely not, so I don't see someone on a budget buying an EcoZone or a herpkeeper. If you are looking to compare apples to oranges, you will obviously not see the value in the item. BUT if you are looking at apples to "apples" the value is in the EcoZone and not the Herpkeeper.

I think we disagree on the meaning of "value". A mercedes benz is a premium item and you pay a premium price for it. Your example is spot on, except that I would say the exact same thing there....a Benz is ***NOT*** a good value. You are PAYING PREMIUM for PREMIUM features.



I never said Herpkeeper has more value. I am merely saying that the price:features:necessity ratio on the ecozone is not very good.

In attempting to stick to your analogy.....if I want a car with certain features, and nothing more, I *would* buy the KIA over the Benz.

You are making it sound like I'm whiny because of the cost. IM NOT. I'm dissatisfied with the cost:return RATIO. That is how I define "value".


A Benz has VERY little value for the price you pay imho. You could get the same functionality effectively for a far lower price without getting all the extraneous bells and whistles. Thats what I'm aiming for...


As for $58 "because it can be saturated, dried, and used again" I don't follow? And yes, check any electrical component retailer....a basic TEMP only probe is ~$2.