Calling all T. quadricornis keepers!

jajeanpierre

Chameleon Enthusiast
yes they do !! lol
to bad this guy passed, but at least I got to have him here for a while and study him a bit - this was the male that was going to be paired with my girl - but he passed right before he was to come back with her, but he is the one who made me fall in love with them ( and the female, so crabby, but just love her ) he was so friendly, and mellow - awesome little guy

Wow! He was spectacular. My male is so much bluer than any of the pictures I've seen posted. I wonder if it my male's his young age.

We need to find the graciliors. There were hundreds that came in--I sure hope there are more than these four pair in the hands of breeders. And I hope whoever has them knows they actually have graciliors. I fear that some who have them don't realize there is a difference between quad quads and graciliors. It is an easy mistake to make.
 

GCash

Avid Member
yes they do !! lol
to bad this guy passed, but at least I got to have him here for a while and study him a bit - this was the male that was going to be paired with my girl - but he passed right before he was to come back with her, but he is the one who made me fall in love with them ( and the female, so crabby, but just love her ) he was so friendly, and mellow - awesome little guy

Gorgeous. Sorry to hear he's no longer with us. I'd love to have seen what he looked like when he was fired up. He looks rather relaxed and still has all that orange on his head. It's interesting to see the variation in male gracilior's coloring on the sides of their heads. Just in this thread I've seen blue streaks, orange streaks, orange patch and orange patch with blue streaks(Jeremy, you've got to get us a pick of your male in full display).
 

jajeanpierre

Chameleon Enthusiast
Gracilior Babies are Hatching!!!!

I'm so excited!
 

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Gorgeous. Sorry to hear he's no longer with us. I'd love to have seen what he looked like when he was fired up. He looks rather relaxed and still has all that orange on his head. It's interesting to see the variation in male gracilior's coloring on the sides of their heads. Just in this thread I've seen blue streaks, orange streaks, orange patch and orange patch with blue streaks(Jeremy, you've got to get us a pick of your male in full display).

It seems like the graciliors, from what I've seen anyway, seem to vary more than the standard subspecies. I've always been torn as to whether or not to work with gracilior, but a major reason I haven't is that not as many keepers are working with them (less stock to trade, etc.). Following this thread though is sure tempting me. :) Here's a male that I had picked up for Laurie. Notice how he had yellow on his tail fin.

Perry
 

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GCash

Avid Member
It seems like the graciliors, from what I've seen anyway, seem to vary more than the standard subspecies. I've always been torn as to whether or not to work with gracilior, but a major reason I haven't is that not as many keepers are working with them (less stock to trade, etc.). Following this thread though is sure tempting me. :) Here's a male that I had picked up for Laurie. Notice how he had yellow on his tail fin.

Perry

He's awesome. His horns also look as long as the non orange-headed male I posted a picture of at the top of the second page of this thread which are for sure some of the longest horns I've ever seen on a quad. Have you or anyone else ever seen horns this long on a quad quad or could this be another gracilior idiosyncrasy?
 
He's awesome. His horns also look as long as the non orange-headed male I posted a picture of at the top of the second page of this thread which are for sure some of the longest horns I've ever seen on a quad. Have you or anyone else ever seen horns this long on a quad quad or could this be another gracilior idiosyncrasy?

Longer horns is one characteristic that is typical of the gracilior subspecies (as compared to the nominate subspecies). I'm sure there is a gray area in between, where some quad quads have longer horns and some graciliors have shorter horns when compared to others of their subspecies, but in general, whenever I see horns of the length that the male in the photos has, I immediately think of gracilior. Of course, you need look at the other general characteristics as well to be reasonably sure that you are dealing with a gracilior, but one of more definitive ways is to have the locality data of where the animal was collected (if you are dealing with a WC that is). Unfortunately though, that data has rarely been available.

I've often wondered how often a cross between those two subspecies has unintentionally occurred in captivity. I would never sell a known cross and would highly discourage other keepers from doing so, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone has intentionally tried to breed the two, trying to get the yellows that graciliors often have (along with their longer horns) and the higher dorsal crests (in general) that quad quads have. Crossing the two with the intent of selling any progeny would be irresponsible in my view, even if the buyer knew it was a cross, because eventually, somewhere down the line, progeny will be sold without the buyer knowing, which will dilute the traits that we associate with the different subspecies. In addition, it just doesn't make good business sense, as usually, crosses are not as valuable as pure subspecies.
 

GCash

Avid Member
Longer horns is one characteristic that is typical of the gracilior subspecies (as compared to the nominate subspecies). I'm sure there is a gray area in between, where some quad quads have longer horns and some graciliors have shorter horns when compared to others of their subspecies, but in general, whenever I see horns of the length that the male in the photos has, I immediately think of gracilior. Of course, you need look at the other general characteristics as well to be reasonably sure that you are dealing with a gracilior, but one of more definitive ways is to have the locality data of where the animal was collected (if you are dealing with a WC that is). Unfortunately though, that data has rarely been available.

I've often wondered how often a cross between those two subspecies has unintentionally occurred in captivity. I would never sell a known cross and would highly discourage other keepers from doing so, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone has intentionally tried to breed the two, trying to get the yellows that graciliors often have (along with their longer horns) and the higher dorsal crests (in general) that quad quads have. Crossing the two with the intent of selling any progeny would be irresponsible in my view, even if the buyer knew it was a cross, because eventually, somewhere down the line, progeny will be sold without the buyer knowing, which will dilute the traits that we associate with the different subspecies. In addition, it just doesn't make good business sense, as usually, crosses are not as valuable as pure subspecies.

I'm aware that quad quads could have up to six or even eight horns but I don't remember ever hearing anything about length which is why I was interested in what others have experienced. Definitely not a definitive characteristic, just another possible checkpoint. As for crossing the two, you're preaching to the choir. I cringe at mention of crossing panther locales.:eek:
 

Motherlode Chameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
There are a couple of locales listed for Trioceros quadriconis gracilor. They could be phenotype variations for the Trioceros quadricornis gracilor based on evolved traits from separate locals causing the phenotype variation within this sub species.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 

GCash

Avid Member
There are a couple of locales listed for Trioceros quadriconis gracilor. They could be phenotype variations for the Trioceros quadricornis gracilor based on evolved traits from separate locals causing the phenotype variation within this sub species.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Are you Referring to Mt. Oku and Mt. Lefo localities? That happens to be the names of my gracilior males. The long-horned male is Lefo and the orange-headed male is Oku. If that is the case, I'd love to hear what characteristics are associated with which locality.
 

little leaf

Avid Member
I'm aware that quad quads could have up to six or even eight horns but I don't remember ever hearing anything about length which is why I was interested in what others have experienced. Definitely not a definitive characteristic, just another possible checkpoint. As for crossing the two, you're preaching to the choir. I cringe at mention of crossing panther locales.:eek:

this is a male Quad who is here right now that has 6 horns - he is also for sale ;) andd I just heard of someone who did cross a gracilor male, and quad female - :eek:
he did not know apparently he had a Gracilor, but that male is now going to a new person who DOES have a female, so there is going to be another pair in the mix :D
and HUGE congrats Janet !!
 

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I'm aware that quad quads could have up to six or even eight horns but I don't remember ever hearing anything about length which is why I was interested in what others have experienced. Definitely not a definitive characteristic, just another possible checkpoint. As for crossing the two, you're preaching to the choir. I cringe at mention of crossing panther locales.:eek:

That wasn't directed at you. ;) I just thought I'd mention it just in case anyone thought about crossing subspecies intentionally.

If most of the people who purchased the gracilior went to keepers who are not familiar with the subspecies (e.g. people who don't use these forums), those keepers might unintentionally cross the gracilior with quad quads.
 

bobcochran

Chameleon Enthusiast
Congratulations Janet!! After all the waiting now comes the fun part. There's nothing more gratifying than raising healthy young babies (parasite free) from wild caught parents. Keep up the good work.
 

GCash

Avid Member
this is a male Quad who is here right now that has 6 horns - he is also for sale ;) andd I just heard of someone who did cross a gracilor male, and quad female - :eek:
he did not know apparently he had a Gracilor, but that male is now going to a new person who DOES have a female, so there is going to be another pair in the mix :D
and HUGE congrats Janet !!

He is also for sale? I must ask, what is the latent animal for sale that the "also" implies? Could you please give us more details on the others you've found? It'd be nice to connect with the person with the gracilior pair and to be able to avoid the crossed clutch. Thanks for looking out.
 
Are you Referring to Mt. Oku and Mt. Lefo localities? That happens to be the names of my gracilior males. The long-horned male is Lefo and the orange-headed male is Oku. If that is the case, I'd love to hear what characteristics are associated with which locality.

Me too. If the different locales can be distinguished simply by different characteristics, then it would be possible to only breed gracilior of the same locale to each other. Like the O. pumilio dart frogs though, I would imagine that different locales might sometimes have animals that look virtually identical so without collection data, it might not be possible to keep the different locales pure in captivity.

Also, it's been a while since I've read about the distribution of the subspecies of quads, but I'm curious as to how much total area each occupies and where and to what extent their ranges might meet each other. I had thought that the subspecies were pretty much isolated from each other, but since the most recent imports contained both subspecies, both of which were shipped from the holding facility in Equatorial Guinea, I wonder if they were likely collected from an area in Cameroon where the two subspecies might be in relatively close proximity. Just how far apart are the different mountains that contain the gracilior and quad quad subspecies?
 

Motherlode Chameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
Are you Referring to Mt. Oku and Mt. Lefo localities? That happens to be the names of my gracilior males. The long-horned male is Lefo and the orange-headed male is Oku. If that is the case, I'd love to hear what characteristics are associated with which locality.

They are not just located at the Mt. Oku and Lefo Massif Locations. Trioceros quadricornis gracilor occurs on the Bambuto Mountain, Foto, Dschang, and Lefo Massif in Cameroon and the Obudu Plateau in Nigeria. This species is found in higher mountain forests at elevations between 1,600-2,500 meters. The theory is that there is a good chance that these population are isolated since they are located at higher elevations and have a good chance of showing phenotype variation within the Trioceros quadricornis gracilor subspecies range. This variation is shown with an extra orange tail sailfin, unique head coloration, or uniquely more red toe nails than the rest of the Trioceros quadricornis gracilor population that is seen imported.

I would want to have a look at the collection locales to confirm if these imports came from 1 locale or multiple locations.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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GCash

Avid Member
Me too. If the different locales can be distinguished simply by different characteristics, then it would be possible to only breed gracilior of the same locale to each other. Like the O. pumilio dart frogs though, I would imagine that different locales might sometimes have animals that look virtually identical so without collection data, it might not be possible to keep the different locales pure in captivity.

Also, it's been a while since I've read about the distribution of the subspecies of quads, but I'm curious as to how much total area each occupies and where and to what extent their ranges might meet each other. I had thought that the subspecies were pretty much isolated from each other, but since the most recent imports contained both subspecies, both of which were shipped from the holding facility in Equatorial Guinea, I wonder if they were likely collected from an area in Cameroon where the two subspecies might be in relatively close proximity. Just how far apart are the different mountains that contain the gracilior and quad quad subspecies?

The only distribution map I've ever seen, which is quite old, simply states gracilior occurs in the area of the two mountains I mentioned above.

Where's Chris Anderson when you need him?:D
 
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