Bee Pollen? The Right stuff?

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Bee Pollen? Is this the right stuff???

Okay, so I know a lot of us (Myself Included!) have taken to using Bee Pollen, whether in our Gutload, as a Dusted Supplement, ect.

The idea, is relatively sound. In the wild, we see Bees, Wasps, and more so Beetles being as major portion of wild diets. @JacksJill, and @kinyonga can hopefully give us a few in the comments below, which I will add to OP.

Now, not all Beetles are pollinators, however its a relatively good assumption a large portion of the huge portion of beetles in wild diets are. So there is a firm idea behind the pollen logic. How much Pollen helps, we really dont know, however it certainly cannot hurt, and logically is helpful / useful.


So Pollen is good, but is Bee Pollen Correct:

Now we are in the Meat of the thread. Pollen is good, surely, but is Bee Pollen the correct way to provide it. That I would like to open debate to. Lets preface this with what is Bee Pollen, exactly.

"Bee pollen is a ball or pellet of field-gathered flower pollen packed by worker honeybees, and used as the primary food source for the hive. It consists of simple sugars, protein, minerals and vitamins, fatty acids, and a small percentage of other components."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bee_pollen

Does anyone spot the issue here?

Bee Pollen is NOT Flower Pollen! We see they eat bees, and wasps, and we see they eat more so beetles. We have heard, about how Bees have pollen traps on their legs, where pollen is collected, and eaten along with the bee. That is all fine and good, except, that is not Bee Pollen. The feeders in the Wild, are not accompanied with Bee Pollen. The Pollinator Beetles, do not have access to, nor are they eating Bee Pollen.

"Bee Pollen" is the Flower Pollen, that the Bees have collected, brought back to the hive, where it is processed and encapsulated by the bees, the pollen is also allowed to ferment, part of the process as well. The only place you will encounter "Bee Pollen" is in the Hive, of the Bees. Chameleons are not ransacking the hive, and consuming Bee Pollen. They are Consuming the Flower Pollen that the Bees are carrying to the Hive.


So why does any of this matter? Well, it matters, because due to the way the Bees have altered the substance, and the way they encapsulated it. Only bees, can break down the capsule, They contain an Enzyme, that allows this encapsulation process. They also produce an enzyme that allows them to pierce it. Our Stomach acids, nor a Chameleons cannot digest this, nor break the capsule. It stands to reason, that some of the capsules are broken, when translated to powder, not all as these capsules are very small. So with every bit of Bee Pollen, we present, only a small portion is actually digestible pollen.

There is other issues that have been found to Accompany Bee Pollen.

2020-02-22 11_20_49-Flower vs. Bee Pollen - SomaLab.png

http://www.somalab.net/studies-reports/flower-vs-bee-pollen/


Now that site is trying to sell you something, so I would not blame you for taking that with a big ole grain of salt. I do too.



However, they do make good logical arguments. They are also not alone, in their science.
https://www.jonbarron.org/herbal-library/foods/flower-pollen#.VS023EJFCRQ

That is another source, among many who backs those very ideas.




So this threads intention, is not to put down the idea of using Pollen, as a Gutload of a Supplement. Rather a question is Bee Pollen, the right medium for Pollen delivery?

Read the articles, find some more, and let me know what you think. Is Bee Pollen the product we should be using/pushing? Or has their been a better option under our Nose all along?
 

Taylor81

Established Member
The pollen that Is collected is not processed in the hive. This comes from external traps on the entryway of the hive.

What your thinking of as far as processed inside the hive is Propolis I think.

The other factors do apply and we are at the will of what's collected I agree. But I've used it with no I'll effects that I've noticed.

However the fact that this stuff being is regarded as not nutritional I see as bullcrap.

Outside of chameleons ingestion of bee pollen as well as bee honey has been proven to boost immune systems in humans.

EDIT because I forgot to state it: why would this not also benefit chameleons in the same respect.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
The pollen that Is collected is not processed in the hive. This comes from external traps on the entryway of the hive.

What your thinking of as far as processed inside the hive is Propolis I think.

The other factors do apply and we are at the will of what's collected I agree. But I've used it with no I'll effects that I've noticed.

However the fact that this stuff being is regarded as not nutritional I see as bullcrap.

Outside of chameleons ingestion of bee pollen as well as bee honey has been proven to boost immune systems in humans.

EDIT because I forgot to state it: why would this not also benefit chameleons in the same respect.

It would benefit chameleons in the same respect as it would humans. The debate that is being made, is that the benefit to humans is also low. Due to the encapsulation process. I do agree, and said as much. That Lab is trying to sell a product, but that study is not the only one to make those claims. Other credible scientific study's, are saying the same.

On that same vein, the biggest reputable push to use Bee Pollen in Mass, also has some Stake in the Bee Pollen business.

The traps that are below the entryway, are a little misleading. As yes I have seen the same, however as you can see here.
That is processed encapsulated bee pollen, Not Flower Pollen that has been dropped.

Also, they are not saying the Pollen is not Nutritional, as much as they are saying that once the bees encapsulate it, in a form that our bodies cannot digest or break the protective barrier, your not getting the nutrition that is inside.



Also, genuine curiosity. Do you have a link to study of Bee Pollen immune boosting? Is it a credible source? Not saying at all it isnt true, just wondering where it stems from. My Grandma, drinks colloidal silver, for the same reason, even though its been proven to be borderline deadly by credible sources.

I brought up the dangers of the source, of Bee Pollen on another thread recently. We had a family, that was selling bee pollen and honey at the local farmers market a few years back. They sold a ton, until the shed 50 feet away from their bee farms that housed a meth lab exploded. Thats not a shot at Bee Pollen, at all, but we touched at the dangers, and that is a real danger.

There is no testing on this stuff, these people can claim whatever they want, and put whatever they want in there, and have some pretty bad situations for the Bees. This is not a proven, or restricted or tested product in the slightest. Most of the Bee Pollen, here where I live, is in the Mom and Pops, that sell Locales Pollen, and Honey. I do not buy those however.

Buying from a Large company, can help curb some of the risk, but not all. I had a article in the other thread we touched on this. Where a Large Commercial Bee Pollen seller, was lacing it with Weight Loss Drugs, and chemicals that were killing people. They claimed it was by mistake, they also processed and sold weight loss supplements, and so it was cross contamination was their claim. Which is possible, and most of the products we deal in, possess these risks so not picking on the pollen here at all.

Also, I am just playing devils advocate, and giving food for thought. I use Bee Pollen too, but if Flower Pollen is a better substance, I would personally like to know as well, as I have no quarrels with switching.
 
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Molly1443

Member
Very interesting...
I’ve been using it alot too, but I don’t know why mine isn’t in « capsules ».
I bought mine on northern gecko canada a while ago and it looks like this :
image.jpg
image.jpg

Its pretty much powder.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Very interesting...
I’ve been using it alot too, but I don’t know why mine isn’t in « capsules ».
I bought mine on northern gecko canada a while ago and it looks like this :View attachment 259267View attachment 259268
Its pretty much powder.

They smash it, its frequently sold in a powered form.

The question is the encapsulation of the pollen. They use an Enzyme to encapsulate it, in those balls you see. Something in there saliva or something. They can with enzymes in their bodies, break down that enzyme and get the nutrition from the pollen, however its said that other species, like humans cannot, as we lack the enzyme needed to break theirs down.

The Claim is, that when smashed like this, some of it, is not as well encapsulated by the enzyme, so we still get some benefit, but a lot of it is being wasted, as it were as not being able to be broken down.

Not sure how much truth there is to any of it, just thats what they are saying.
 

Molly1443

Member
They smash it, its frequently sold in a powered form.

The question is the encapsulation of the pollen. They use an Enzyme to encapsulate it, in those balls you see. Something in there saliva or something. They can with enzymes in their bodies, break down that enzyme and get the nutrition from the pollen, however its said that other species, like humans cannot, as we lack the enzyme needed to break theirs down.

The Claim is, that when smashed like this, some of it, is not as well encapsulated by the enzyme, so we still get some benefit, but a lot of it is being wasted, as it were as not being able to be broken down.

Not sure how much truth there is to any of it, just thats what they are saying.
Oh I see. Good reading ahead!! ?
 

Taylor81

Established Member
I get the debate here. Is the flower pollen possibly a better source. I think personally they are equivalent of one and other.

I dont scare by the "oh its exposed to bacteria etc etc" this that blah blah. Only way my mind will change on that is proof that its harmful. Which I've only seen benefit.

If a keeper chooses to live off paranoia that's in the decisions you make as a keeper.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
I get the debate here. Is the flower pollen possibly a better source. I think personally they are equivalent of one and other.

I dont scare by the "oh its exposed to bacteria etc etc" this that blah blah. Only way my mind will change on that is proof that its harmful. Which I've only seen benefit.

If a keeper chooses to live off paranoia that's in the decisions you make as a keeper.


Its not a matter, of oh its harmful ONLY. Though that is a possibility.

Its a matter, how much of that bee pollen is not able to be digested, rendering 50% or more of the Product (according to as far as I have gotten in Kins link) worthless.

The entire argument of use, in the Chameleon aspect, was chameleons eat Pollinators. Which is true, but Bee Pollen that we are buying is not what they are eating in the wild. If we can source "Flower Pollen" which is more akin to what they would be exposed to, less dangerous, more nutritious and fully digestible, and similar priced (I have not looked at this yet) why not switch? That sounds like a hold lot of positives, with zero downsides?

There is a downside, Flower Pollen, costs quite a bit more. About double.

@kinyonga Thats a VERY Long paper. I will have to read it later, I read some, but I will have to come back to that lol.

Or you could give us a summary for now :).
 
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Taylor81

Established Member
Its not a matter, of oh its harmful ONLY. Though that is a possibility.

Its a matter, how much of that bee pollen is not able to be digested, rendering 50% or more of the Product (according to as far as I have gotten in Kins link) worthless.

The entire argument of use, in the Chameleon aspect, was chameleons eat Pollinators. Which is true, but Bee Pollen that we are buying is not what they are eating in the wild. If we can source "Flower Pollen" which is more akin to what they would be exposed to, less dangerous, more nutritious and fully digestible, and similar priced (I have not looked at this yet) why not switch? That sounds like a hold lot of positives, with zero downsides?

There is a downside, Flower Pollen, costs quite a bit more. About double.

@kinyonga Thats a VERY Long paper. I will have to read it later, I read some, but I will have to come back to that lol.

Or you could give us a summary for now :).

The only true way to possibly tell since no science puts much care or research into in depth aspects of the health and well being of chameleons on molecular levels... would be a breeder to experiment with a clutch, or possibly multiple clutches.

Divide a clutch in half and run one half on a strong bee pollen regimen, and the other half on a strong flower pollen regimen and document EVERYTHING. Measurements of supplementing, weights, lengths, coloration progression photos, rostral horn growth (depending on species), or any other notable aspects of the animals.

I've read over alot of the data in this post cause this actually did intrigue me. The theory/thought is 100% sound. But I digress and question we must be getting a fair amount of the encapsulated pollen compromised enough to absorb, otherwise we would not see the benefits we do.

The question therein lies is more better? Or would it wind up being lost in feces overkill. And a unnecessary extra cost being higher priced and all.
 
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nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
Another aspect is i wonder if like honey, the nutrient profile changes drastically. Most people think honey is 99% sugar that just never goes bad, and has some micro nutrients in it that you cant get from normal sugar. But depending on the species and location, they can have a good amount of protein (enough to keep a human alive) in it too.

I think cyberlocc touched on it a while back that most honey comes from 1 crop that the bees where paid to pollinate. Its not like the honey they sell "for allergies" because it was made in your area so the bees collected pollen from multiple sources.

I need to hit up my meadery guy. Seening a 5 gallon bucket of honey is impressive, seeing 100 buckets and you are like "i couldnt afford that", and then hes like "thats tuesdays batch".
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Another aspect is i wonder if like honey, the nutrient profile changes drastically. Most people think honey is 99% sugar that just never goes bad, and has some micro nutrients in it that you cant get from normal sugar. But depending on the species and location, they can have a good amount of protein (enough to keep a human alive) in it too.

I think cyberlocc touched on it a while back that most honey comes from 1 crop that the bees where paid to pollinate. Its not like the honey they sell "for allergies" because it was made in your area so the bees collected pollen from multiple sources.

I need to hit up my meadery guy. Seening a 5 gallon bucket of honey is impressive, seeing 100 buckets and you are like "i couldnt afford that", and then hes like "thats tuesdays batch".


It does, a few of the above links touch in that, and I did a bit with Fermentation.

Some argue, that's better, that Bee pollens Fermentation causes it to be more potent and more nutritional.

I want to run an experiment with my flower beetles, when they emerge. Petr was talking about them being a more natural feeder. However to actually feed the beetles, I would feel more comfortable with a diet change. As most folks feed the beetle jelly, or make it. Basically brown sugar and Banana. I can't assume that makes a great gutload lol.

However if they would, take to a flower pollen or Bee pollen only diet, that would be neat. I can dissolve all the bee pollen, into hot water with agar agar, and create the jelly.
 
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