baytril 10%
- Thread starter Fate X
- Start date
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Why do you want to use it? Are you trying to create resistant bacterial strains for any particular reason? The only reason to give an antibiotic is to treat an infection from bacteria that are sensitive to that drug. In those cases, it is done in controlled doses so that it is most effective. Giving these medications at diluted doses or when there is not an infection to treat can cause any bacteria that may be present in equilibrium to become resistant which will be highly problematic down the road.
Chris
Chris
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Does giving an undose, diluted medication usually restricted by law to prescriptions under vet supervision and dosing to a chameleon with an infection sound like a good idea? If the infection can kill the animal and we assume that the dosed quantity from the vet would be more effective in treating the infection then giving the animal a diluted, undosed quantity of the antibiotic while we already know that diluted exposure has an increased likelihood of causing resistance of the bacteria and a bigger problem on your hands, I probably wouldn't categorize the idea as particularly bright.
Chris
Chris
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Fate X says:
FYI, just because you can get it on the internet does not make it "legal". Most of these sites have a box you check, or prescription number that you fill in (which can be made up) such that the "law-breaking" is primarily on you. Secondly, ignorance of the law here in the U.S. by you does not make it legal to buy things which often are shipped from over-seas.
Secondly, Chris points out the lack of sound judgement on your part, in his first post, should you want to administer this to an animal without the guidance of a vet. It is clear that you are near clueless regarding meds, do not have the guidance of a vet now, if ever, to which you respond:
Lastly, Baytril does not go lightly with a chameleon. While you may be creating a resistence in bacteria where they have not been properly identified and sensitivity testing done, you could also easily harm or kill your chameleon by over-dosing it.
FYI, to all readers, it is my estimate that you can get anything on-line. Anonymity rides again.
FYI, just because you can get it on the internet does not make it "legal". Most of these sites have a box you check, or prescription number that you fill in (which can be made up) such that the "law-breaking" is primarily on you. Secondly, ignorance of the law here in the U.S. by you does not make it legal to buy things which often are shipped from over-seas.
Secondly, Chris points out the lack of sound judgement on your part, in his first post, should you want to administer this to an animal without the guidance of a vet. It is clear that you are near clueless regarding meds, do not have the guidance of a vet now, if ever, to which you respond:
Maybe you need to read Chris's advice again, as it applies whether you dose your animal tomorrow or next month. Not surprisingly, your "response" was as irresponsible as your initial thread starter.
Lastly, Baytril does not go lightly with a chameleon. While you may be creating a resistence in bacteria where they have not been properly identified and sensitivity testing done, you could also easily harm or kill your chameleon by over-dosing it.
FYI, to all readers, it is my estimate that you can get anything on-line. Anonymity rides again.
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
One more bit of FYI. A true "10%" solution is significantly stronger than the concentrations most often used and recommended for all small animals, to include dogs, cats, and reptiles. Its playing with fire.
MWheelock
Veterinarian
Baytril
So here's an answer to the original question.
Yes. Baytril Max is the same active ingredient (enrofloxacin) however a much different concentration than what your vet uses.
Your vet uses a concentration of 22.7mg/ml baytril inj while the baytril max is formulated for cattle and thus is a much higher concentration of a 100mg/ml.
Oh sure, this may not seem to be a big deal if you are pretty good at math and good at doing multiple dilutions to get the dose. Example- lets say you have a juvi cham @ 0.2kg and using a dose of 5mg/kg. Thats 1mg that you need to give, right?
Here's the rub... you can try to use a 1cc syringe and dilute it down, but you will probably have to dilute it 1 time but probably twice to get the right concentration. Another problem- do you have a suspension that is evenly going to distribute the baytril evenly throughout the mix....
Do you feel comfortable doing this? Are you comfortable enough to risk your chameleon's life on it?
Oh yeah, if you overdose you will most probably fry your cham's kidney's.(This can happen with a normal dose if your cham is dehydrated) If you underdose you may increase the chance of drug resistence and prolong the duration of the infection.
What's really fun is having a client self diagnose and start giving antibiotics when the actual problem was fungal/ thermal burn/ parasites/ mbd/ etc. No doubt there are some breeders that I trust do know how these other problems present but most hobbiests don't.
I guess to sum up. Baytril is a pretty "big-gun" drug. If your cham needs it, it probably needs to be seen by someone to figure out how and why it got into that situation in the first place. If it doesn't need it you have not put your cham in a potentially more dangerous position
Just my two cents...
Matthew
So here's an answer to the original question.
Yes. Baytril Max is the same active ingredient (enrofloxacin) however a much different concentration than what your vet uses.
Your vet uses a concentration of 22.7mg/ml baytril inj while the baytril max is formulated for cattle and thus is a much higher concentration of a 100mg/ml.
Oh sure, this may not seem to be a big deal if you are pretty good at math and good at doing multiple dilutions to get the dose. Example- lets say you have a juvi cham @ 0.2kg and using a dose of 5mg/kg. Thats 1mg that you need to give, right?
Here's the rub... you can try to use a 1cc syringe and dilute it down, but you will probably have to dilute it 1 time but probably twice to get the right concentration. Another problem- do you have a suspension that is evenly going to distribute the baytril evenly throughout the mix....
Do you feel comfortable doing this? Are you comfortable enough to risk your chameleon's life on it?
Oh yeah, if you overdose you will most probably fry your cham's kidney's.(This can happen with a normal dose if your cham is dehydrated) If you underdose you may increase the chance of drug resistence and prolong the duration of the infection.
What's really fun is having a client self diagnose and start giving antibiotics when the actual problem was fungal/ thermal burn/ parasites/ mbd/ etc. No doubt there are some breeders that I trust do know how these other problems present but most hobbiests don't.
I guess to sum up. Baytril is a pretty "big-gun" drug. If your cham needs it, it probably needs to be seen by someone to figure out how and why it got into that situation in the first place. If it doesn't need it you have not put your cham in a potentially more dangerous position
Just my two cents...
Matthew
Fate X
New Member
article from chameleon magazine
i read this from a chameleon magazine article it mentions baytril 10%
I have several concerns that I want to address first. If you read the label for Baytril, enrofloxacin, it says to give ONE injection and then switch to giving it orally. I have seen cases of herps developing severe muscle damage and necrosis from repeated injections. It is not safe, nor wise, to do repeated enrofloxacin injections. The injectable can be given orally, or your vet may have access to Bayer’s poultry solution, 3.23 percent, that is water-soluble. Some pigeon supply companies also offer out of country 5 and 10 percent water-soluble enrofloxacin. From studies performed, it appears that giving the antibiotic orally causes adequate levels in the bloodstream of herps.
Studies have shown that the most effective antibiotic for many herp abscesses is Fortaz, dosed at 20 mg/kg SQ, every 72 hours, although when possible, choice of antibiotics should be made based on culture and sensitivity results, method of administration, any pharmacokinetic studies performed and cost.
For all antibiotics, the reptile should be kept at the higher end of the POTZ (preferred optimum temperature zone), in order that the drugs work most effectively. So, for all herps being placed on antibiotics, one must know the temperature zone for each species and then make a point of maintaining it at the high end of the range during treatment.
In addition to having a bacterial culture and sensitivity on the mass, cytology might also prove helpful. The material from the lump can be smeared onto a glass slide or the slide can be touched to the opened mass, and then the slide is stained and examined with a microscope. A complete blood count (CBC) and plasma chemistry panel might also provide clues to what is going on with Zeus.
I am also concerned about Zeus being unstable and off-balance. I wonder if your chameleon could have a middle ear infection that could be affecting its balance. Zeus should have the openings of the Eustachian tubes evaluated to make sure that they are draining the middle ear properly.
Chameleons sometimes get pockets under the skin with a subcutaneous worm living there. But it doesn’t sound as if that is what came out of the mass on his head. That is worth checking into, however.
Now, onto your questions. First, I would recommend injecting a cricket or mealworm with the appropriate dose of antibiotic, and then encouraging Zeus to eat the “spiked” insect. This is the easiest way to administer medications to a reptile that is still eating voluntarily without the need for handling it, causing undue stress.
The volume of food that should be fed to a herp is approximately 20 ml/kg body weight every 24 to 48 hours. This amount can be used as a guideline. For a primarily carnivorous chameleon (although veileds do consume some vegetable material, as well), you can make up a mixture of canned A/D diet mixed with sports drink, or a mixture of one jar all-meat baby food mixed with one fourth of a jar of one vegetable baby food, and administered by syringe. These should be fine to feed short-term until you get Zeus eating on its own again. If Zeus is dehydrated, then you can add more water, sports drink or pediatric oral rehydration fluid to the food. Be careful not to aspirate Zeus. If you are not sure how to administer the nutrients using a syringe, then ask your vet to show you how to do it first. I wouldn’t recommend trying to pass a stomach tube in a chameleon due to the trauma and stress involved.
Any handling of a chameleon is stressful to them, so make sure to keep handling to an absolute minimum. Try to coordinate medicating and f5orce feeding so that it is only handled once a day at the most.
I hope this helps.
i read this from a chameleon magazine article it mentions baytril 10%
I have several concerns that I want to address first. If you read the label for Baytril, enrofloxacin, it says to give ONE injection and then switch to giving it orally. I have seen cases of herps developing severe muscle damage and necrosis from repeated injections. It is not safe, nor wise, to do repeated enrofloxacin injections. The injectable can be given orally, or your vet may have access to Bayer’s poultry solution, 3.23 percent, that is water-soluble. Some pigeon supply companies also offer out of country 5 and 10 percent water-soluble enrofloxacin. From studies performed, it appears that giving the antibiotic orally causes adequate levels in the bloodstream of herps.
Studies have shown that the most effective antibiotic for many herp abscesses is Fortaz, dosed at 20 mg/kg SQ, every 72 hours, although when possible, choice of antibiotics should be made based on culture and sensitivity results, method of administration, any pharmacokinetic studies performed and cost.
For all antibiotics, the reptile should be kept at the higher end of the POTZ (preferred optimum temperature zone), in order that the drugs work most effectively. So, for all herps being placed on antibiotics, one must know the temperature zone for each species and then make a point of maintaining it at the high end of the range during treatment.
In addition to having a bacterial culture and sensitivity on the mass, cytology might also prove helpful. The material from the lump can be smeared onto a glass slide or the slide can be touched to the opened mass, and then the slide is stained and examined with a microscope. A complete blood count (CBC) and plasma chemistry panel might also provide clues to what is going on with Zeus.
I am also concerned about Zeus being unstable and off-balance. I wonder if your chameleon could have a middle ear infection that could be affecting its balance. Zeus should have the openings of the Eustachian tubes evaluated to make sure that they are draining the middle ear properly.
Chameleons sometimes get pockets under the skin with a subcutaneous worm living there. But it doesn’t sound as if that is what came out of the mass on his head. That is worth checking into, however.
Now, onto your questions. First, I would recommend injecting a cricket or mealworm with the appropriate dose of antibiotic, and then encouraging Zeus to eat the “spiked” insect. This is the easiest way to administer medications to a reptile that is still eating voluntarily without the need for handling it, causing undue stress.
The volume of food that should be fed to a herp is approximately 20 ml/kg body weight every 24 to 48 hours. This amount can be used as a guideline. For a primarily carnivorous chameleon (although veileds do consume some vegetable material, as well), you can make up a mixture of canned A/D diet mixed with sports drink, or a mixture of one jar all-meat baby food mixed with one fourth of a jar of one vegetable baby food, and administered by syringe. These should be fine to feed short-term until you get Zeus eating on its own again. If Zeus is dehydrated, then you can add more water, sports drink or pediatric oral rehydration fluid to the food. Be careful not to aspirate Zeus. If you are not sure how to administer the nutrients using a syringe, then ask your vet to show you how to do it first. I wouldn’t recommend trying to pass a stomach tube in a chameleon due to the trauma and stress involved.
Any handling of a chameleon is stressful to them, so make sure to keep handling to an absolute minimum. Try to coordinate medicating and f5orce feeding so that it is only handled once a day at the most.
I hope this helps.
Last edited:
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Maybe I missed something but what is your point? It says no where that medication should be administered without a vet, no where that it should be added to the water and no where that 10% is safe as is in whatever dosage! Do you understand what you are reading cause I think you need to read it again? It is another source telling you exactly what we've been saying It flat out says that these decisions need to be "based on culture and sensitivity results, method of administration, any pharmacokinetic studies performed". In other words, you need to see a vet. Stop trying to make shortcuts and stop being lazy! The only comment I can assume you might have taken as validation is injecting the meds into a feeder. The difference is you can control the amount of meds the cham gets in a feeder, you can't in the water. Regardless, this all needs to be done under vet supervision because you clearly don't understand what you're dealing with.
Chris
Chris
