Baby eyes closed syndrome

Fate X

New Member
how many babies recover after experiencing eyes closed, sleeping during the day ? do 9 out of 10 die? i would like some numbers here if its possible.
 

veiled_gargamel

New Member
what is baby eyes closed syndrome? i am new to chameleon husbandry. i just got my baby veiled a week and a half ago, I got him at roughly 4 weeks old. What are the age ranges for this syndrome? Thanks.
 

Jordan

New Member
Veiled_gargamel this symptom can appear in any chameleon regardless of species, size or gender. Chameleons are dinurnal. This means the are awake during the day. A chameleon lounging around for a little bit is not uncommon. Sleeping, eyes closed or lethargic behavior can be precursers to a whole range of problems. I think Fate X was refering to the commoness of this symptom by using the word syndrome. If you flip through alot of these old post you will see this symptom appear often. I would attribute most of these cases to imbalances in the blood usually related to M.B.D. When specific chemicals get off balance this can cause sudden drops in blood pressure. Calcium and phosphorus are both key players in their blood and are often misapproriated in their diets (and through their husbandry).
 
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Fate X

New Member
i decided to call it syndrome since it seems common with chameleons. i thought maybe someone had some numbers as to how many baby chameleons that start sleeping during the day die it seems to be from kidney infections ,blood disorders etc. i was thinking it could happen if their day/night cycle gets interrupted .

could a baby thats in darkness for 48 hrs get sleeping during the day ,rolling eyes , her one eye looked like it was gonna explode while she was rolling it.
her setup is small esu cage

live plants, many vines foliage cover, 5.0 uvb flourescent, 60 watt basking light, dripper

at first i thought she got severe burns because most of the time now you can see all these markings on her black spots,she looks dark. but her temp never went over 97 f
she did eat a silkworm,cricket then she went sleeping,eyes open then closing
and in the upper corner of her cage.she seems very young also and i beleive the dog frieghtened her very much .


does anyone know of baby chameleons recovering from this type of symptom on their own?
 
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kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
Jordan said..."When specific chemicals get off balance this can cause sudden drops in blood pressure"...I'd like to read the article you got this from. I've never heard of it affecting blood pressure in chameleons before.

Fate X said..."it seems to be from kidney infections ,blood disorders etc. i was thinking it could happen if their day/night cycle gets interrupted"...how do you know its from kidney infections and blood disorders, etc.? Have you had necropsies done on baby chameleons that have died like this?

Fate X said..."her one eye looked like it was gonna explode while she was rolling it"...when chameleons clean their eyes, they often look like they will explode. As long as it goes back to normal afterwards, this is likely all it is.

Fate X said..."at first i thought she got severe burns because most of the time now you can see all these markings on her black spots,she looks dark. but her temp never went over 97 f"...I never keep baby chameleons that hot. they have small bodies compared to the adults and can dehydrate and warm up and cool off faster than adults, so I keep their temperatures more moderate.

You said..."she did eat a silkworm,cricket then she went sleeping,eyes open then closing and in the upper corner of her cage"..under the spot light or where?

Regarding the dripper...if the chameleon is very young, I advise caution in using one because drips that are too large might be aspirated.

Do you have a substrate? Is your chameleon pooping?

You said..."she seems very young also and i beleive the dog frieghtened her very much"...can't you put her up higher or in a spot where she can't see the dog?

If your chameleon is sleeping almost all the time, then there is a problem with the health of the chameleon. It might be something that you can do something about (some incorrect husbandry or illness), or it might just be that this chameleon is not strong enough to survive. There is a "natural mortality" rate in baby chameleons.
 

Jordan

New Member
Calcium does not just combine with phosphorus to make calciumphosphate rather it is used throughout the body from many reasons. It aids in blood clotting, maintaining a regular heartbeat and (intra and extra) celluar movement throughout the body. Calcium is also a positively charged ion and helps to stabilize the bodies plasma. With a drop in these positively charged ions in the plasma comes tetany. This in itself can cause tremors, irradic flexing of any muscle including the heart. Phosphorus is involved in every metabolic process that I am aware of, although, there are probably ones that I am not aware of so I will say most. Phosphorus is helps aid in (intra and extra) celluar movement not only in the digestive tract but notably in the muscles. I do not have any links. The statement I made is not unfounded though. Under variety of circumstance either /or/ could cause this sudden sleepiness. This is not just calcium and phosphorus we are talking about as lows and highs in these catagories can be responsible for the restriction (or over abundance) of other chemicals found in the body.
 
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Fate X

New Member
Fate X said..."it seems to be from kidney infections ,blood disorders etc. i was thinking it could happen if their day/night cycle gets interrupted"...how do you know its from kidney infections and blood disorders, etc.? Have you had necropsies done on baby chameleons that have died like this?

i only assumed from reading previous threads regarding this topic that it could be dehydration/kidney infection as i read its common in babies.

Fate X said..."her one eye looked like it was gonna explode while she was rolling it"...when chameleons clean their eyes, they often look like they will explode. As long as it goes back to normal afterwards, this is likely all it is.
ive seen chameleons clean their eyes before ,her eye on the otherhand seemed to look bigger ,very big for her tiny body.


Fate X said..."at first i thought she got severe burns because most of the time now you can see all these markings on her black spots,she looks dark. but her temp never went over 97 f"...I never keep baby chameleons that hot. they have small bodies compared to the adults and can dehydrate and warm up and cool off faster than adults, so I keep their temperatures more moderate.
ive since switched bulbs basking temp is no higher then 95 its been between 90-95.

You said..."she did eat a silkworm,cricket then she went sleeping,eyes open then closing and in the upper corner of her cage"..under the spot light or where?

she was in the corner away from the basking light, a dark corner i would say.


Do you have a substrate? Is your chameleon pooping?

she has had bowel movements, one the first day here , i seen her eat a silkworm and at least one cricket the first day here ,the second day she had a huge bowel movemnet, the third day a small bowel movement , fourth day a tiny stool, today she had a very tiny stool .theres no substrate.
Do you have a substrate? Is your chameleon pooping?

her cage was on a steel aquarium stand about 2 1/2 feet high or so it was above the dogs but evidently not high enough ,so i moved her upstairs yesterday .


update for today this morning she was awake a little then she dozed off for most of the day , her cage is in a room with other chameleons but she cannot see them its much more peaceful where shes at now. at times shes awake and seems strong she was even basking for a while but she was climbing blind ,being that she was climbing around with closed eyes. i been spraying her with warm water with electrolize. shes eaten nothing for at least the past 2 days ,i put a silkworm within eyeshot of her n she walks past it,there were 5-6 crickets on top of the cage about 5" from her and she did nothing.

today i decided since she was moving around and basking to get a good look at her , she don't look dehydrated her eyes are not sunk in and her skin don't have wrinkles or flaps etc it looks tight.

i was gonna bath her in warm water with electrolize but i figured she might be to tiny.


something maybe important, when i first got her i did not know if she was eating freerange or cup so i put a cup in her cage with about 8 crickets,later all the crickets were gone,then i was informed she ate freerange, i remember there was alot of dust in the cup.i was thinking maybe the dust got in both her eyes maybe.
when she sleeps it looks like when they sleep at night with her tail coiled etc, when she rolls her eyes it appears shes inflating them from what ive read on a different thread.
 
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Jordan

New Member
Just for reference Will how do I pull down their quotes into my post. I have tried before but was baffled. Not that computer literate.
 

Fate X

New Member
Fate X said..."it seems to be from kidney infections ,blood disorders etc. i was thinking it could happen if their day/night cycle gets interrupted"...how do you know its from kidney infections and blood disorders, etc.? Have you had necropsies done on baby chameleons that have died like this?

i only assumed from reading previous threads regarding this topic that it could be dehydration/kidney infection as i read its common in babies.

Fate X said..."her one eye looked like it was gonna explode while she was rolling it"...when chameleons clean their eyes, they often look like they will explode. As long as it goes back to normal afterwards, this is likely all it is.
ive seen chameleons clean their eyes before ,her eye on the otherhand seemed to look bigger ,very big for her tiny body.


Fate X said..."at first i thought she got severe burns because most of the time now you can see all these markings on her black spots,she looks dark. but her temp never went over 97 f"...I never keep baby chameleons that hot. they have small bodies compared to the adults and can dehydrate and warm up and cool off faster than adults, so I keep their temperatures more moderate.
ive since switched bulbs basking temp is no higher then 95 its been between 90-95.

You said..."she did eat a silkworm,cricket then she went sleeping,eyes open then closing and in the upper corner of her cage"..under the spot light or where?

she was in the corner away from the basking light, a dark corner i would say.


Do you have a substrate? Is your chameleon pooping?

she has had bowel movements, one the first day here , i seen her eat a silkworm and at least one cricket the first day here ,the second day she had a huge bowel movemnet, the third day a small bowel movement , fourth day a tiny stool, today she had a very tiny stool .theres no substrate.
Do you have a substrate? Is your chameleon pooping?

her cage was on a steel aquarium stand about 2 1/2 feet high or so it was above the dogs but evidently not high enough ,so i moved her upstairs yesterday .


update for today this morning she was awake a little then she dozed off for most of the day , her cage is in a room with other chameleons but she cannot see them its much more peaceful where shes at now. at times shes awake and seems strong she was even basking for a while but she was climbing blind ,being that she was climbing around with closed eyes. i been spraying her with warm water with electrolize. shes eaten nothing for at least the past 2 days ,i put a silkworm within eyeshot of her n she walks past it,there were 5-6 crickets on top of the cage about 5" from her and she did nothing.

today i decided since she was moving around and basking to get a good look at her , she don't look dehydrated her eyes are not sunk in and her skin don't have wrinkles or flaps etc it looks tight.

i was gonna bath her in warm water with electrolize but i figured she might be to tiny.


something maybe important, when i first got her i did not know if she was eating freerange or cup so i put a cup in her cage with about 8 crickets,later all the crickets were gone,then i was informed she ate freerange, i remember there was alot of dust in the cup.i was thinking maybe the dust got in both her eyes maybe.
when she sleeps it looks like when they sleep at night with her tail coiled etc, when she rolls her eyes it appears shes inflating them from what ive read on a different thread.
like that all you do is use the quote button its simple
 

Fate X

New Member
on the day i setup her cage i had 3 bulbs to choose from a 25 watt,15watt and a 40 watt all are exoterra sunglo i tested each lighbulbs temp in the cage the 15 and 25 did not get warm enough i think the 25 reached 86 f now on that day it was cold outside maybe 65 f it was cool in my house like maybe 68-71 then the next day if warmed again in my neglect i assumed her temps were ok then on the next day i decided to re-check the basking temp which was 97 f then i switched to the 25 watt which was around 92 -93 f this hood im using is also a peice of junk being that its a fluker .

from what ive read chameleons are spectacular at delivering false hope,this morning she's delivering as promised, eyes open more a few crickets missing. i have already faced the fact that she will most likely be a gonner but now i have some hope.
 

Jordan

New Member
I would not leave crickets in there with her for an extended period of time. They will use up all the gut loading they ate. She will just be eating a phosphorus bugs with no calcium to level it out. That can just prepetuate the situation.
 
I think to call this a syndrome would be a bit irresponsible. There are so many things that could be going on to cause a cham of any age to spend some time with their eyes closed in daylight hours.

As cautious hobbyist we always jump to husbandry and health and justifiably.

IMHO the exposure you are allowing this specimen to high temps is dangerous, depending on how young it is. Veiled and panther chameleons do prefer and likely require the ability to bask in higher temps than other trade common species. However, from a survival standpoint it would be dangerous for the very young to participate in such basking. To bask in direct sunlight in the wild would require the chameleon to perch either above the canopy or outside of the canopy, both places would make the very small juveniles of most species targets for a myriad of predation. Predation would occur in the density of the foliage but the chameleon’s ability to hide and "blend" in would be highly advantageous to its survival. This said I would theorize that high temp direct sunlight basking would be more common in large sub-adult to adult animals. Very young juveniles as mentioned also have less body mass and would not need as much exposure to warm their core as an adult many many times their weight. In addition the size of the small ESU cage does not provide very much room for thermoregulation. Because of its small size the temp in her cage is likely relatively homogenous. From your description of her perching place when sleeping it seems evident that she is likely trying to escape these high temps. I would highly advise that you lower the temp in the basking spot.

In addition baby chameleons kept in dense groups will often be found with their eyes closed. This is not always health related but caused by the stress of so many cage mates. While your chameleon is kept singly, the presence of the dogs, other chams, you, high heat could all be causing her to stress out and shut down to avoid the situation.

While we are here lets look at prey items. You said that she ate 8 crickets from a cup the first day! How much do you expect her to eat? I bet she did have a large bowel movement. Be careful about the over presentation of food in reaction to her lack of interest. IMHO you can desensitize a chameleon to the instinctive prey drive by keeping food constantly available. These added feeders also contribute to the above-mentioned stress. Would you be comfortable in a room where the walls were covered in bugs crawling over your head and there are worms crawling around you. This is not natural, it would never happen in the wild.

If this were my chameleon I would do the following:

1. Get the temps down 80-82 max ambient and present a 40watt basking sight aiming for ~88 degrees max. In addition make sure you are providing a nighttime temp drop to allow her body to rest target drop is ~10 degrees.

2. Increase MISTING, not drip, and loose the drip until she is older. Give her the opportunity to really soak in the mist, drink, breath in the humidity etc. Hot water, fine mist, minimum 10 min x 3 a day.

3. Pack the cage full of heavy cover plants. I mean full, like take you 20 min to find her full.

4. Remove all feeders. Present her 1-2 at a time, if she does not eat them immediately leave them for the day but never overnight. Since the food presence has been high I would remove all food for at least 24hrs.

Just my .02 cents in a world where pennies are obsolete.
 

Fate X

New Member
thanks for the advice, i was with the belief that babies needed 90-95 f basking area and 95-100 f for adults. theres been some changes today
first shes been awake more ,much more i have finally gotten to really see what hers eyes look like while they are open and it don't look good they appear somewhat sunken, i been spraying the warm water with electrolize 4-5 times a day for 10-20 minutes today is the first time i saw her open her mouth while i was spraying ,i am giving up on her dripper because she don't drink from it . her cage alaways had a thick foliage because she gets lost and i gotta find her,just recently she lingers in the same areas.
and today i noticed that it may be some of the feeders were to big because i saw one clinging to her with i then smashed the cricket with my thumb along with 3 others. now i put the smallest in a cup for her .

with her basking temp i raised the dome light 2 inches above the top of the cage its has a 60 watt exo-terra bulb which i imagine is too hot,i'm gonna check the temp and if its to high i gotta use the lower watt bulb.
 

Dave Weldon

Avid Member
... i been spraying the warm water with electrolize 4-5 times a day...
Howdy,

You may not find anyone who would disagree with a decision to stop using the Electrolize. If a big-time breeder swears by it, I'll go grab some myself :). It may be doing something useful but it is more likely that it either does nothing or may have some potential for negative effects. It sounds like a neat product based on the marketing info but in this situation, especially with a baby, it is a variable that could disguise the recovery process. I'd rather see plain warmed tap water or bottled water if there is a concern about your tap water.
 

Fate X

New Member
i am using the product on good faith by the manufacturer as now there is a desperate situation, the product claims to re-hydrate reptiles in truth i don't know if it works.
 
It works great, but is not meant for prolongued use.

Lower the temperature, up the drinking opportunities and good luck with her turn around. Depending on their age, you probably dont even need a heat lamp, providing the room temps arent too low. They'll even bask under florescent bulbs.
 

Fate X

New Member
she is perky again today and i noticed shes basking under the 5.0 compact flourescent light ,her eyes are open much more again and she had a tiny bowel movement which had a brown peice and a yellow color stuff with it.
from what i know she's dehydrated, so i'm continuing the spray sessions that are lasting up to 30 mn. each between 4-5 per day.

this morning i replaced the 60 watt with a 40 watt the temp right under it about a inch beneath the screen was 91 f i gotta check her basking temp again this afternoon.
it seems like sleepy might have a chance to survive.
 
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