Are Meller's unsexable, even as adults?

Aminah Undone

New Member
I was just perusing a particularly well known classified site and there are quite a few Meller's Chams available, both WC and CH/CB. I inquired on one ad and the seller claims they are "unsexable, even as adults".

Is this true? Seems odd.... :eek:
 
Yep the only safe way to sex a Melleri is for them to lay eggs or flash their manhood.

Although there are some people that have worked with them enough that are pretty good and accurate with judging on behavior and such.

Its a roll of the dice lol
 
I was just perusing a particularly well known classified site and there are quite a few Meller's Chams available, both WC and CH/CB. I inquired on one ad and the seller claims they are "unsexable, even as adults".

Is this true? Seems odd.... :eek:

Yes, it is true. There are some old theories around about sexing them visually, but they don't hold true. Watch the cham while it is defecating...you may get lucky and see its hemipenes if it's a male. Adult wc females often arrive gravid, so you can also start weighing it to watch for a fast weight gain.
 
Yes, it is true. There are some old theories around about sexing them visually, but they don't hold true. Watch the cham while it is defecating...you may get lucky and see its hemipenes if it's a male. Adult wc females often arrive gravid, so you can also start weighing it to watch for a fast weight gain.

yeah the old theories where nostrial projection(but females still have one, and sometimes as big or bigger than males wth?)..then neck flaps..(both have this too..piss one off..male or female, still react the same)..base of tail(since they have a half ass sail fin design, its hard as hell to really look for the bulge..i have seen a few, but only after you know its a male, then you have to really look..large bulky chams all have large bulky tail bases)..they are difficult chams..i have found for me personally..the females are usually still chill even when they see a mirror..males react like males when they see a mirror

thats my trick..:D
 
I feel kind of bad.. haha.. I thought the guy was daft. :p

I guess they are similar to Blue tongued Skinks, in this regard. It took 3 years for me to figure out I have a female Bluey.

Anyway.. so other than having to deal with egg laying, is there any particular difference in them as "pets" ? I want to free range this animal in my reptile room, but I'm still working out whether they will be affected by the snake rack (they can't see in the tubs, and my Pyg's are in that room.. seemingly oblivious to the snake rack). My Burms are in another room and they cruise the rest of the house when they are out for "play", so they shouldn't be an issue.
 
I feel kind of bad.. haha.. I thought the guy was daft. :p

I guess they are similar to Blue tongued Skinks, in this regard. It took 3 years for me to figure out I have a female Bluey.

Anyway.. so other than having to deal with egg laying, is there any particular difference in them as "pets" ? I want to free range this animal in my reptile room, but I'm still working out whether they will be affected by the snake rack (they can't see in the tubs, and my Pyg's are in that room.. seemingly oblivious to the snake rack). My Burms are in another room and they cruise the rest of the house when they are out for "play", so they shouldn't be an issue.

i have chinese water dragons (well saved them and gave them to a friend that just couldnt live without them..haha)..but my chams never had an issue with them..although i did find them in the chams tree a few times..oddly enough.baking with my chams..( i was like "what the hell, you guys dont mate, shouldnt you be mad at eachother") but otherwise..just watch yer chams..and as long as they cant see the snakes, im sure they will be fine..

p.s. used to be into the eyelash vipers..but im done with tube meat, and pets that i have to hold with tongs..LOL


p.s. i call snakes "tube meat" or snocks like tube socks.. lol
 
i have found for me personally..the females are usually still chill even when they see a mirror..males react like males when they see a mirror

thats my trick..:D

That wouldn't have worked for my big wc female! A mirror was the arch enemy!
 
Anyway.. so other than having to deal with egg laying, is there any particular difference in them as "pets" ? I want to free range this animal in my reptile room,

Not really. I've free ranged both, but their individual personalities probably matter more. If the light angles create reflections on the snake tank fronts you might see the cham reacting or posturing to it. My wc female would purposely stalk through the house to find the glass stereo cabinet door and threaten the "intruder" routinely. Then she'd climb around behind it to seek further. I was always prying her loose from the tangle of stereo wires there.
 
That wouldn't have worked for my big wc female! A mirror was the arch enemy!

hahaha..totaly thats why i would say they "usually" will act a certain way..sucks how difficult these guys are

p.s. i have a female panther that i swear is more aggresive than my big male..she sees a mirror and head butts it instantly..silly lizard.lol
 
Carlton.. I am laughing uncontrollably at the stereo scenario! That is priceless! :)

I don't think the tubs that are in the racks throw a reflection of any kind, but I do have mirrors in my house. Two. Anyhoo.. I'm concerned about acclimating and not having a year round outdoor enclosure. (The one seller said he wouldn't recommend them if they couldn't be housed outdoors. He went as far as saying they probably would die, if they were kept inside. Needless to say, I will not be buying from him.)

Maybe I should consider a baby and raise it up...


EDIT: It just occurred to me.. I have a free range Yellow Foot tortoise. I'm envisioning crazy Meller Cham trying to pry Hemi's shell off her back, for walking through "her" house.
 
Carlton.. I am laughing uncontrollably at the stereo scenario! That is priceless! :)

I don't think the tubs that are in the racks throw a reflection of any kind, but I do have mirrors in my house. Two. Anyhoo.. I'm concerned about acclimating and not having a year round outdoor enclosure. (The one seller said he wouldn't recommend them if they couldn't be housed outdoors. He went as far as saying they probably would die, if they were kept inside. Needless to say, I will not be buying from him.)

Maybe I should consider a baby and raise it up...


EDIT: It just occurred to me.. I have a free range Yellow Foot tortoise. I'm envisioning crazy Meller Cham trying to pry Hemi's shell off her back, for walking through "her" house.

Yeah, I did a lot of laughing at her too! She was usually pretty indignant about that.

Oh, tub racks...I was thinking you had glass tanks. Nevermind. I doubt the tortoise will be seen as a threat really...but the feeling might not be mutual! I think I'd keep them apart unless you are home. The tortoise could do more damage than the cham.

That seller is clueless. Most of us keep our chams indoors. I've always had to as I don't live in cham-friendly places. I take all my chams outdoors on nice days for basking whenever possible instead. I wouldn't worry about trying to acclimate a cham for your area. Too many hazards and worries unless you had a very sheltered, secure (no predators, hidden well planted cages), quiet back yard. And, in winter...not sure about that.

If, while getting oriented in the house, your cham happens to catch a glimpse of itself in one of the mirrors, it may return there to make sure the intruder is gone. My big girl stayed in her free range room most of the time, but sometimes she did take a sort of "patrol stroll" through the rest of the house to visit a favorite basking window, potted plant, that cool damp spot next to the bathtub, the warm napping spot on the fan box on the back of the fridge, and of course the offending stereo cabinet door. Chams have very fine spatial memory and can retrace their "safe" routes very precisely.
 
i hear that they are unsexable but I also heard a blood test might work due to the hormons i just recently found this out. it might be possible if you tried the blood work but i'm not sure yet
 
i hear that they are unsexable but I also heard a blood test might work due to the hormons i just recently found this out. it might be possible if you tried the blood work but i'm not sure yet

Haven't heard this...but immediately wonder if the blood hormone sample would need to be taken during a specific time of year. Melleri have one specific breeding season so if you took blood at the wrong time it might not be definitive. Don't know how gender neutral they are outside of breeding season. Someone would have to establish a baseline for hormone values of each sex...and your vet would have to have access to that. DNA might work better than blood hormones which fluctuate.
 
The mellers hates everything. It gets mad if a person, dog, cat, other lizard, etc. is in the room. Try to hold it and your fingers will loose circulation if he gets hold of them. He leaves marks all over my arms. If he wasn't a WC and his nails were more normal it would pierce me like needles! Its tail is impossible to unwrap from whatever it's holding. I've never seen the hemipenes or felt any eggs. I have absolutely no idea what gender it is. I might be able to see what is reaction to a known male this year, so we'll see.

It's a demon! It does everything it can to avoid any sort of human contact. It even tries to fight small dogs! (It would win too.) Anywho, there is no way a mirror would work with it. I am as happy to let it be as it is with me letting it be. It has not been worth the trouble to try to determine its sex so far, so I will not even try. I'm just happy it hasn't bit me!
 
I'm sitting here giggling... sorry :D

I love spunky animals for some odd reason. A lot of my friends and people I know in the hobby are pretty amazed at the "whisperer" effect I have on some notoriously "angry" animals. It's hilarious! I don't try.. it just seems I click very well with the ornery ones. Maybe we have something in common. ;)
 
You can not really identify males from females..... I have had up to nine melleri in my care at once... I've been right and wrong when 'calling' the sex of them. I've had a little more success than failure..... but you can't really ever know until you see hard evidence. The link posted by Linda about endoscoping is a bit dated (2002) if I remember and from my understanding is something you DON"T want to do on a non-sexually mature melleri. It is also something you SHOULD NOT ask your vet to do. This is not a procedure that should be taken lightly. You will harm your animal if there is any mishap.

Honestly, the best thing to do is to just raise them up and see what happens. The rush to find proper mates/pairs is silly in my mind. Even if you get a male and female, it doesn't mean they'll get along or even want to mate. They aren't like the other chameleons. They aren't veileds that just bone on site. I have a known female and male living together. They've 'courted' but mostly keep to themselves now, on oposite ends of the free range. When I say courting I mean they have done the abusive and aggressive pushing and showing off. I think mostly to show one another 'hey this is my area...'. I have never seen them mate.

Something I am noticing is that I think females sleep together. I am not 100%... but Pat, I thought was male and Lenny and Pat used to sleep close, often. Part of why I thought Pat was male. When Pat died from a midnight fall, we found that Pat was a female. Right now I have a third melleri living with Sam and Lenny in the free range who I would bet is female.... and Lenny and George sleep fairly close to one another. They don't sleep side by side, but in the same tree, lenny above george. This is the same arrangement that Lenny and Pat would be in. Lenny must be the dominent female of the group. George always submits and avoids conflict with Lenny.

I don't want to sound condescending here... but I think people who keep melleri or think they want to, just need to understand they are slow growers and that mating them isn't some overnight hobby. You won't make a bunch of money being a 'breeder' of melleri over night, or evan at all. I have been keeping melleri for almost 4 years...... and not had any mate. It has taken time for me to get my husbandry to the point it is now, and to get my understanding of the species to where it is now. These chams aren't 'easy'. Sure, you follow some of the basic husbandry of chameleons and can have 'success' keeping them, but that doesn't mean every need is met. Melleri need space... this is key. I sometimes think people under estimate the space needed for melleri. I am not perfect, my care is not perfect. But I just want to encourage people to be sure they research these chameleons before getting into it.
 
summoner12... I'm not sure if you've directed your reply to all of us, or just me, personally ..so the condescension will be overlooked.

I asked a question out of curiosity. I would like to have a Melleri someday, but I'm waiting for Nosy Be eggs to hatch right now, and perusing KS satiates my "empty nest syndrome" ...as well as, peaks my curiosity and interest in some different Chams that I may consider keeping some time in the future. Not everyone that wants a specific gender for their pet, is pursuing breeding or "making a bunch of money". (My personal take on people that see dollar signs when they think of animals.. are blazing idiots. Period.) Some take other factors into consideration.. like not wanting to deal with eggs, not even infertile ones.

Thanks for all the info from everyone. :)
 
Not everyone that wants a specific gender for their pet, is pursuing breeding or "making a bunch of money". (My personal take on people that see dollar signs when they think of animals.. are blazing idiots. Period.)

I agree with you. I've had a lot of chams over the years, other herps, exotic birds, dogs, etc. but have never insisted that any of them breed. If it is more humane to keep a species in male/female pairs I keep them that way. If they prefer a group or to be left alone, that's what they get. But, most of the animals I've kept were also rescues, animal shelter adoptees, or selected very carefully so they would have a decent life in my hands. Now many keepers feel that you can't claim to be successful keeping any species unless you can demonstrate breeding to multiple generations. Fine...that's a legitimate point. I just don't need to do this for my own bragging rights, to pay for my "hobby", or have animals support me financially.

I found my melleri great creatures to share space with. They were not all nice of course, but I found them exacting, demanding, beautiful, intriguing to watch, and a good stretch for my creativity. Their gender was beside the point...though I did end up knowing who was what eventually.
 
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