sperm retention?

Hey everyone. I was wondering how long after a clutch is laid that a female panther will have another one due to sperm retention? I searched around and found on julirs thread that around a month for a veiled is this the same for panthers? My female laid 25 eggs on Jan 10. She is starting to plump up and still retains the nonreceptive colors. I have caught her on the bottom screen too. Not really wandering around though or there for very long. I do have a drainage set up that I am sure she could see the water drops hitting in the catching container. This might be catching her attention. Anyway thanks for your time and I am going to fix up her laying container right now.

Our Sambava panther, Ramina, laid a clutch on Thanksgiving Day (November 22nd), and then another (retained sperm) clutch on December 29th.

My Veiled laid a clutch on 10/23 and then a second clutch (all eggs were bad) on 1/3.

Thanks guys. I got her container ready. I will put it in tomorrow morning. Im not to worried about it because she isnt acting as extreme or showing the usual signs that she is ready to lay but I just want to make sure. So a month to 2 months is the answer right now? Thanks again

sorry to bring up an ancient thread but im curious as to how many times a female can lay a fertile clutch due to retained sperm. Brevs specifically. I have a brev whose laid 3 clutches with ~2 months in between each clutch and im affraid shes on her 4th soon. And if a clutch is laid due to sperm retention, is the hatch rate reduced at all?

From what I've seen, Veileds that mate and lay eggs will generally lay another clutch about 3 months later with sperm retention. Clutches after that are usually 90% to 100% infertile.

Steve

Myth

Sorry to hijack this thread slightly, but I thought it bears mentioning that, to my knowledge, there is nothing but anecdotal evidence that chameleons retain sperm. What do we know about sperm? Male animals have testes that produce it constantly. Why? Because sperm has a very short shelf-life, both inside and outside the male's body, a constant supply is needed.

I've read and heard about chameleons retaining sperm for 17 years and have never seen or heard any physical evidence for how female chameleons "magically" keep sperm, not only alive but viable, for weeks. I've believed sperm-retention to be a myth for some time now and have noticed on European forums that some people are starting to say the same. Females of the live-bearing species ARE known to have embryos developing at totally different stages at the same time. I believe that in the egg-laying species, all the eggs are fertilized at once, just like the live-bearers, and the development of one of the strings of eggs is delayed while the others develop and are laid.

i assume it works like this...

the female has the potential to create fertile eggs as a male has the potential to fertilize those eggs. my guess is thaat the sperm fertilizes as many eggs as it can, and the cham has the ability just to hold onto the fertilized egg but not actually start dividing till conditions are right. so basically it just in suspended animation or whatever till it gets a kick of something then it starts to grow...

then again im not an expert nor do i know much about the subject. the idea came to me in bio class when we were talking about reproduction. as humans we can hold onto eggs until hormones start dropping them out or creating sperm... so y cant a cham do this with frtile eggs? i also assume fertile eggs can be lost as well, just as eggs in humans can be lost during their idle time...

anyway... im just rambling and guessing on the matter... if more informed people kno about the issue can u shed some light on the matter? cuz obviously i dont kno

im curious to know about this phenomenon cuz 1 of my pygmys hasnt stopped laying eggs, and keeps dropping cuttches every 1-2 months and i think its just starting to take its toll on her. as of late shes been goin to sleep during the day for long times. i gt her on my hand right now and im noticing that she has twisted toes that dont seem natural, and im wondering if her babyfactory could be sucking nutrients to the point where she could be developing mbd... i supplement her food every other time i feed her but i dont think its wrking... any ideas?

Very very interesting Kent. Ive never thought of it like that but you could be on to something there.

Ran across this extract today:

The duration of sperm storage by females differs markedly between reptiles (maximum: 2555 d [7 years] and birds (maximum: 117d), with mammals showing both very short (< 1 d) and relatively long periods (maximum: 198 days). The females of many reptiles, probably all birds and some mammals have specialized structures for storing sperm, suggesting that selection for sperm storage has operated on females. Sperm storage, together with delayed implantation and delayed development, separates copulation from fertilization, and hence, copulation from the timing of birth. All three types of separation mechanism occur in mammals. Delayed implantation cannot occur in reptiles and birds because their eggs do not implant, but delayed development occurs in some reptiles. Comparisons among vertebrate classes suggest that sperm storage in the female tract may have an upper limit of a little over 100 days in endotherms: non-hibernating mammals have circumvented this limit by using delayed implantation as an uncoupling mechanism. A long reproductive cycle (up to four years) probably makes sperm storage obligatory for some reptiles. We consider existing hypotheses for prolonged sperm storage and the other reproductive delays, and propose a new hypothesis. Our hypothesis extends Sandell's (1990) hypothesis which states that in mammals delayed implantation has evolved to allow females to time both their copulation and birth seasons optimally. We propose that the other separation mechanisms, namely sperm storage and delayed development, have also evolved for this reason. Sandell suggested that the optimal time for females to copulate is when the opportunities to obtain the best quality male exist, and thus the dislocation of copulation and birth seasons has occurred through sexual selection. We propose that the other two separation mechanisms may also have evolved through sexual selection, in part at least. Of the three separation mechanisms, sperm storage has additional advantages for females in that it also allows them to modify their choice of male after copulation has occurred, through sperm competition. Thus we propose that: (1) all separation mechanisms have evolved when the optimal time for copulation is not compatible with either the optimal time for fertilization (birds) or the optimal time for birth, given a constant gestation period (reptiles, birds and mammals); (2) separation mechanisms have evolved through sexual selection enabling females to improve the quality of the male that fertilizes their eggs, either through pre-copulatory male-male competition (via any of the separation mechanisms) or through post-copulatory sperm competition (via sperm storage).

Here's the link:
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1095-8312.1993.tb00933.x?cookieSet=1&journalCode=bij

Thanks a lot. Very interesting

Great information!
+1 for you!

Questions

gesang said:

The females of many reptiles, probably all birds and some mammals have specialized structures for storing sperm, suggesting that selection for sperm storage has operated on females.

Click to expand...

Has anyone ever found viable sperm being stored in these "specialized structures" in chameleons? How are sperm cells kept alive and viable in reptiles for 7 years outside of the male's body? How would that work?

Sandell suggested that the optimal time for females to copulate is when the opportunities to obtain the best quality male exist, and thus the dislocation of copulation and birth seasons has occurred through sexual selection. We propose that the other two separation mechanisms may also have evolved through sexual selection, in part at least. Of the three separation mechanisms, sperm storage has additional advantages for females in that it also allows them to modify their choice of male after copulation has occurred, through sperm competition.

Click to expand...

Why do non-gravid chameleons have non-receptive periods if storing sperm from multiple partners is possible AND so advantageous to selecting the best potential mate?

Kent67 said:

Has anyone ever found viable sperm being stored in these "specialized structures" in chameleons? How are sperm cells kept alive and viable in reptiles for 7 years outside of the male's body? How would that work?



Why do non-gravid chameleons have non-receptive periods if storing sperm from multiple partners is possible AND so advantageous to selecting the best potential mate?

Click to expand...

Good questions. The paragraph was just an extract. I didn't bother to see whether one would have to pay to register and read the entire article. It is dated 1993.



Where's my flapneck?

Sorry, just rhetorical questions, didn't mean to imply you should have the answers

Kent67 said:

Sorry, just rhetorical questions, didn't mean to imply you should have the answers

Click to expand...

I know. But, it DOES seem that there should be a complete answer, doesn't it? I mean, if it's not retained sperm, then it's delayed egg development (not delayed egg implantation, since chameleons don't have a uterus-type organ). And, it seems that fertile, yet undeveloped eggs, would have been easy enough to find during a necropsy? Don't you think? I mean naturalists have been cutting chameleons open for over 100 years now. It doesn't seem like this should be such a nebulous issue. But then, what do I know, I'm just a housewife. Sometimes I have difficulty recognizing what the fuzzy stuff is in the used margarine container in the back of the fridge.