There's and interesting study regarding what old science as thought of as a single species of girafffe.
Recent DNA analysis has provided evidence that the large grouping of all into a single species is incorrect.
There are many distinct species that have been undergoing hybridization in zoos that believed
that they were in effect "just different locals".

LINK: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/5/57

BBC article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7156146.stm

This seems to also be true and apply to the different "localities" for the different panther groups.
The differences between different groups is more than just coloration
there are physical differences as well.
All totaled they may be different species or on their evolutionary way to complete division.

This brings up the ethical concerns with hybridizing the different groups domestically.
Let the fun begin.... thoughts?

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I totally believe that Ankaramy panthers are a subspecies of panther. They are smaller, more delicate and have distinctive pointed heads. (I also think they are easily the most beautiful)

I saw that story but I don't think it necessarily applies to F. pardalis. Variation in color and small differences in morphology proportions don't necessarily imply a different sub-species. For example, in the giraffes, it was stated that they had always been believed to be one species. It was only through observing mate selection behavior and DNA studies that it was realized they were different. F. pardalis still recognize each other as potential mates, even if they're from across the country from each other, so that one's out. So that would leave DNA study, right? Hopefully we'll get that some day.

As to the ethics thing, once these animals have been taken out of the wild, there is no more ethics. Their mate selection is anything but natural, regardless of whether they stay in the same locality-type or not. Since the babies bred in captivity will not ever be released back to Madagascar, it is a personal choice.

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Jackson's chameleon article: http://www.chameleonnews.com/10JulManchen.html

I have nothing to provide really, Interesting, but I don't think the field of research is getting too much attention right now. Kent, I'm not sure you can count out that point, since females are nearly identical with very subtle differences, from all around Madagascar. In the Giraffes, as I understood it, with the locales, even the females are distinguishable from another locale. It's possible that the differences in the localities of females, is even so slight that males cannot tell.


Anyway.... Interesting. Although I'm more partial to breedings that attempt to stay more true to locale specific offspring, (I guess I like the offspring better than mixes), this breeding of the locales for designer panthers, is going to happen subspecies or not. It has never stopped anyone in the field of snake sub-species breeding, let alone entirely different species, and snakes from entirely different continents.

Blood Pythons X Ball Pythons
Reticulated Python X Burmese Python
Ball python x Carpet python
Yellow Anaconda x Boa Constrictor Imp.
Kingsnakes X Cornsnakes
Milksnakes X Kingsnakes
Just off the top of my head...

It would seem that entirely different species, that look entirely different in morphology and have different reproductive habits and courting methods, will recognize each other as potential mates. Another reason I wouldn't count out that point. Weather or nit it applies to F.pardalis, I'll let the biologists figure that one out. Until then speculation and good natured conversation is all we have I think.

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WILL HAYWARD

I agree nothing will be known for sure until genetic studies are conducted but for now there are a few things I'm not sure I agree with above. Will, are you saying females have no choice in the mate selection process?

Also, the snake example is a good one in regards to what captive breeders will do. For the topic of mate selection, I'm not sure it applies though because most snakes have very poor eyesight and mating has more to do with pheromones and other stimuli. I'm not sure about the sense of smell in giraffes, but I know it is rather poorly developed in chameleons. I know giraffes and chameleons both have good eyesight, compared to a lot of animals though. With the case of chameleons, vision is the primary sense used in finding mates. If both male and female panthers of different localities recognize each other as potential mates based on visual characteristics and giraffes don't, that is different. Also, we know that a male panther from the east coast will consider a male panther from say, Ankaramy, as a breeding rival and they will fight. Is the same true of these species of giraffe? Since males of one species (or subspecies, however you look at it) are not attracted to females of other, sympatric species, I doubt the opposing males would view each other as rivals. I could be wrong of course, but more food for thought.

Sénior Hairfarmabiole you say-ah
Please reread the study.
The giraffe's will mate and hybridize in a caged environment such as a zoo.
IF in the wild, the female choose who she'll take. The study says that she
will prefer to pick the guy that most "reminds her of daddy".

I will also bet that a female panther if given the choice in captivity
will also pick her regional local species over one farther removed.
The issue is that she really doesn't get the choice... the owner does.

After all there is a reason why these developed different traits
in the first place. Subtile it may be, but panther females
may travel to a chosen males territory
in order to mate when she's going into cycle.
Just like every other female I've ever known....
they choose who they want and present themselves.

It's the males that aren't all that overly choosy
as my sambava head bobs at even young veild males shows

I believe that until DNA examination shows different we should keep
ourselves from hybridizing the different locals (species).
if for anything... just to play it safe and not do anything wrong.

males will fight... haven't you seen the video's of them head butting?
aggression during the females mating cycle is going to correspond with male Testosterone
and we both knows what that does... right?
I believe that they'll generalize against a potential rival to a much greater degree
even when NOT in the presence of any female in estrus.
as pointed out in the study the different types dont mix in the wild.

http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Wow, and you didn't like Ronaldo?

Ok, I didn't word that right. I know what happens in captivity with giraffe species (or subsp.) hybridizing. They choose not to in the wild which is where I was headed. Do the males of different species see each other as romantic rivals in captivity?

At any rate, I don't believe that a female panther would choose a mate based on locale type alone, in the wild or in captivity, but that sure would make an interesting study.

Female pardalis seem too horny to care what the males look like.

granted will.
They don't seem to have much of a courtship for the CB animals.
that's why I mention that the wild females may move into a chosen males territory
before she's fully receptive.. in preparation.

Veiled males travel around during breeding season
visiting every local female and driving out other males
until she becomes non receptive and drives him off.

more study is needed indeed.
but this is food for thought on weather or not
different locals should be crossed domestically.

well i know that animals are based on: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, and Species. where would the Subspecies fall in their? if it did at all... maybe between Genus and Species?....???

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