******please this was not meant to be a discussion on whether we should or shouldnt, this is not a morality thread, just a what if and when thread********

Hello all,

I want to discuss what facts we know of as a community about recessive and dominant genes regarding coloration in panthers.

I'm going to probably ask stupid questions, but I would like a few things covered.

How does barring and background come into play?

IE if you mated a black barred panther with a panther having all white background and bars, what background on what bars is likely to be produced.

What color genes are expressed dominantly and recessively?
Does this hold true for different locales? IE red is dominant regardless of locale?

I'll ask more if this thread gets going

I'm no professional but I think you will find in some locales such as Sambave, Ankaramy and Tamatave, the Male offspring will usually mimic the sire. With other Locales such as Ambilobe and Ambanje there is no telling what the result will be until adulthood. I.E. With these locales you could breed 2 Red bar blue body together, and end up with a total mix of all sorts of bars and backgrounds. That's why I personally find these so fascinating

exactly, why is there no documentation on this? my mind wanders............

i have sooooo many questions, i have a few people im hoping stop by and share

does know one know because there isnt a market for crosses? and no one bothers to test these things?

I personally don't work with any crosses, but the Kammers and Pams Chams have crosses. From what I have seen, it is either a hit or miss. I have seen a Pink crossed with a Nosy Be that was a soft bluish pink (but the colors didn't really pop), a Tamatave crossed with Ambanja () thanks to primtym88, and many Ambilobes mixed with Nosy Bes (they tend to have a vivid blue barring with red dots in their background color) and many Ambanjas mixed with Ambilobes.

(This may be getting out of the fact and more into opinion so brace yourself) I don't really know how strong the market is out there mainly because for the customer it is like buying a mutt rather than a pure breed dog. People do it but and mainly because it is much cheaper. Also for the breeder, we have to give as much love to the crosses as we would have to with a pure locale but we would be selling them for less.

-chris

thanks chris,

thats more info on crossing and results than anyone has been able to give me. I have absolutely no intention what so ever in breeding and selling for profit.


so no one knows anything factual about what happens to bars and backgrounds on crossing?
IE:

if red bars are dominant, is red background dominant as well?

One of the problems is that the coloration and patterning of pardalis and other chameleons is extremely complex and likely polymorphic. What that means is that there are many different individual traits that come into play to create the genetic basis of an individual's color and pattern. Each of those individual traits likely have multiple gene possibilities depending on the locale and different combinations of genes for a particular trait will probably interact very differently. Then you add multiple traits interacting differently depending on what genes are coding for each trait and you have an incredibly complex situation with an amazing array of diversity. To the best of my knowledge, there has really been no attempt to pick apart such a complicated polymorphic phenotype situation in chameleon coloration and I doubt there will be anything concrete provided about it for a long time.

Chris

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Chris Anderson
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I see what you are saying, the only way to find out for sure would take countless cross breeding programs. As of now there is no commercial gain from such research, hence is has not been done, and wont be done untill there is a need, or a funded program.


So no facts readily available.....i kind of like that, new territory.

I agree with chris. (he beat me too it)
You've got to remember that all of these animals are "new" and the husbandry is still in its infancy.
I'm sure that there's some records on the results of crossings kept by the more advanced
and established keepers / breeders that have worked on their own lines. (F8-F9 generations!)

But there's going to be NO WAY you or I can expect them
to open up those books for us poor fools. It's their business.
IMO, they deserve to make money from their sweat and tears.

I've been tossed some wry tidbits here and there in years past.
Just enough to get my creative juices flowing trying to figure out what's not being said.
but that's all.

If you really want to know these answers.
they you'll have to put forth the large amount of effort
and years of record keeping to get things worked out by locality genotype.
it's all an uphill struggle.. every step has to be personally won with these animals
that is part of the personal attraction for myself.

__________________
"In Target earlier today I learned there is really no good way to answer a 5-year-old asking you why you are looking at his mother's butt so much..."

Im in this for the long haul.

and anyone i asked about this info in personal messages the first thing i stated was that i know what im asking for is valuable information if for no other reason than its not common knowledge, and i would feel disrespectful asking for such knowledge if i had monetary gain in mind. Im not going to be abe to let this go now................................