Outdoor Veiled breeding enclosure ideas?

Alright so me and my buddy are looking into doing some large scale veiled breeding. We already heavy into Ball Python morph breeding and were looking into expanding to Veileds.

We got 2 concepts of an enclosure on the table. Our location central south florida.

concept 1:

A 20 ft x 30-40ft 12ft tall screen fence that would encircle some trees and what not on the property. having the fence go 2 foot underground and at the top haveing a 2 foot wide section of plastic. (to prevent them from crawling over the top and getting out).

This is an open top enclosure that would allow insects and other critters in to minimize feedings.

concept 2:

A 12ft x 25ft 12ft tall greenhouse. It would have 4 windows that would open that have screens to keep them in. There would be a stone path that goes threw the enclosure with elevated flower beds where they can lay eggs. A misting system would be run across the top and set on a timer for a simulated rain inside the greenhouse.


Personally im goin towards the greenhouse idea. It seems to be a more secure and controlled enclosure. Looking at putting 10 females and 3 males in this one. We would be have to release around 1000 crickets per month into this enclosure.



Any ideas and thoughts are greatly appreciated.

i like the tree idea. but youve got a few problems, depending on what sort gauge screen youd be using miscellaneous wildlife will probably be able to get in. plus with the top open raptors could get in and munch them up.

you also probably wouldnt be able to separate them in such an enclosure. so your looking at a maximum of one male and maybe a couple females living comfortable.

you are also potentially looking at exposing them to parasites in the screen cage.

not to mention being unable to assess their health and food intake on a daily basis.

and with a greenhouse you can control temperatures and precipitation.

with the greenhouse you can partition it off and provide many enclosures within. it would also be easier to maintain. instead of having to climb a tree to locate your lizards, and providing egglaying medium. misting system would also make much more sense within a greenhouse setting.

i vote greenhouse. easily

where are you located btw or rather what sort of climate is it in your area?

edit*

and seriously dont let all 13 in together free range. that is a large enclosure but thats is far too many to free range.

also 1000 crickets would equate to like 2.5 crickets a day.....way too low, youre also going to have to supplement.... so free ranging and limited food intake is not a good idea for a breeding population

Well were about 2 hours south of orlando. And about 30 mins south of us we have wild populations of them all over. So the climate is great for them. The ones my buddy has do better outside than inside. Hes noticed a faster growth rate keeping them outside, they eat more and just look alot more healthier and display more colors.

Thats one of the main reasons i dont want to go with the open top. But even with the greenhouse idea were not planning on keeping them separated. The plan is to put lots of tropical plants from there natural environment in there and just let them roam around the whole enclosure. It would give plenty of room for 10 females and 3 males.

The crickets i havent really put to much thought into. But i believe that after a short period of time even they would be able to establish there own breeding pop in the enclosure.



Depending on how this all turns out (since this is just a trial run) well either expand the greenhouse to make room for up to 20-30 females. Or Even set up another one and focus on panthers in that one.

Personally i would go with the greenhouse idea, keeping things as close to the outdoors as you can while maintaining the utmost control.

Key note with anything you do that combines crickets and screening. Crickets will manage to eat through the toughest of screens at the most inconvenient time possible for you. if you plan on keeping crickets in the enclosure, use aluminum. stay away from meshes, and fiberglasses.

I love the idea of free ranging them in a large enclosure, the only problem is keeping the critters out. I know where i live, raptor populations and feral cat populations are up, Be careful of what critters can get in and around your chams!


i do love the greenhouse idea! Please keep us posted and i'd love to see pictures of whatever you decide

Question, how will you know where they are laying? That is what i would put serious thought into. Game Cameras during breeding season may work... hmm , Any way you need to take that into consideration when making a large scale breeding enclosure. I am building a mini breeding enclosure, 5' long, 6' tall and only 2' wide. and i've been cautioned that finding the eggs may be difficult. Unless you plan on leaving the eggs outdoors, in which case i am honestly not sure how well that would work.

That may be a large enclosure, but I think you are really pushing it with the amount you want to put in there. If you want to worry about the safety of your chams, I wouldn't push it that far. They are very territorial.

But on the other note, I think the green house is the best idea. The eggs would be a problem though. Finding and knowing where they are would be difficult. A huge free range like this would also make it more difficult to check each cham for problems, or to make sure each one is eating enough. Supplements would be a big problem as well, and one thousand crickets a month would not be enough unless they start to breed.

I think its a wonderful idea, just some tings you need to think about and possibly fix.

I'd love to see updates and pictures if you do it though.

With the where the eggs are laying question. Pretty much were just gonna let them lay where they want and let the eggs hatch on there own. I know this is gonna drop the hatch rate. But the way we see it the chams know where to lay there eggs to give them the best chance of survival they can. Ive been told by a few people that they dont put them into an incubator and just leave them be. But it also saves us from having to worry about things going wrong in the long incubation process.

Also they will only be able to lay the eggs in the flower beds. Thats why were going to put stone along the walkways. Just to limit the area where they can lay and just to make sure we dont go walkin on any nests.


The dogs on the property keep everything away for the most part. But i gues it wouldnt hurt to run electrical wire along the outside.

But now on to this cricket issue.
I know that they would eat threw mesh. So were planing on useing steel wire mesh. But you really think they will eat threw the plastic lining of the greenhouse walls?

PitViper said:

But now on to this cricket issue.
I know that they would eat threw mesh. So were planing on useing steel wire mesh. But you really think they will eat threw the plastic lining of the greenhouse walls?

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Well, it can certainly happen.

mychamtini112012 said:

That may be a large enclosure, but I think you are really pushing it with the amount you want to put in there. If you want to worry about the safety of your chams, I wouldn't push it that far. They are very territorial.

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I was thinking the same thing. I honestly dont know enough about chams to be saying stocking sizes and what not but 13 did sound kinda heavy to me. haha

mychamtini112012 said:

That may be a large enclosure, but I think you are really pushing it with the amount you want to put in there. If you want to worry about the safety of your chams, I wouldn't push it that far. They are very territorial.

But on the other note, I think the green house is the best idea. The eggs would be a problem though. Finding and knowing where they are would be difficult. A huge free range like this would also make it more difficult to check each cham for problems, or to make sure each one is eating enough. Supplements would be a big problem as well, and one thousand crickets a month would not be enough unless they start to breed.

I think its a wonderful idea, just some tings you need to think about and possibly fix.

I'd love to see updates and pictures if you do it though.

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Yeah there are a lot of holes in this idea but thats why i figured it would be a good idea to ask here first. The more feed back we can get the better. This isnt something were just jumping into and starting tomorrow. lol

But from what i gathered only the males are territorial. Am i wrong? A 3600 cubic foot area is gonna be to small for 13 chams?

So what would be more appropriate? 5 females and 2 males? If thats the case we might as well just built a larger greenhouse.

Yes, I completely understand. I've posted something about a large indoor cage I'm building and I can't even start building until the spring. It was a great idea to come her first.

I actually believe both are territorial. Only some chameleons really do well in a group, unless they have a lot of room and very dense foilage. And with that, I think a smaller group would be best. If you wanted five females and two males, you would have to watch them EXTREMELY closely. Veileds are more aggressive anyway. At least, that's what I've read from other websites. You could always start a nice breeding group of hoes.

PitViper said:

Yeah there are a lot of holes in this idea but thats why i figured it would be a good idea to ask here first. The more feed back we can get the better. This isnt something were just jumping into and starting tomorrow. lol

But from what i gathered only the males are territorial. Am i wrong? A 3600 cubic foot area is gonna be to small for 13 chams?

So what would be more appropriate? 5 females and 2 males? If thats the case we might as well just built a larger greenhouse.

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theyre both going to be territorial.

ideally you would be housing them separately, even the females. they can look tolerant of one another when housed over time but trust me there is going to be a big stress factor especially in the gravid females, which will lead to health issues over time. (its just poor husbandry)

the gravid females become particularly aggressive especially when confronted with a male who is in all likelyhood going to attempt a mating.

and then the bigger problem is male on male aggression. certainly you are providing a very large enclosure but that is still a population density unheard of in the wild. they can and will cause one another some pretty nasty wounds especially when they essentially cant escape and can only go so far.

even with an excessive amount of foliage there will still be highly trafficked areas ie. branches that lead from one tree to another, the tops of the highest trees, and shrubs or bushes near where food or water will be most available. confrontations, no matter how large the enclosure, are going to be unavoidable.

just to give you an idea, i had one adult male panther rub his nose raw (it was bad) because the visual barrier between his cage and his neighbors was slightly ajar and allowed for maybe a 2 inch window into the other enclosure. he had apparently sayed in the corner all day and fervently rubbed his nose down hard.

they are very visually oriented and will spot one another from afar, and then proceeded to hunt one another down. they wont just hide from one another and behave themselves.

and now the biggest issue in my mind is keeping tabs on them all. ensuring they are all eating an appropriate amount and that one or two of them arent gobbling down the majority of the feeders is going to be near impossible. also supplementing d3 is probably going to still be necessary. most materials greenhouses are constructed out of are going to filter out most of, if not all of, the uvb. they arent going to be getting their calcuim and d3 from meat like your snakes, they need supplementation being insectivores if they dont have access to unfiltered sunlight so they can metabolize it on their own. metabolic bone disease isnt pretty.

i suppose you could get a whole lot of uvb emmiting lights to negate the need for supplementation...but who wants to put lights in a greenhouse, plus that wont be any sort of cheap.

if youre adamant about housing multiple chams in an enclosure after what ive made note of. i would have to say at bare minimum the males should not be housed together, and that you should partition your greenhouse (at minimum) into quarters. one male per 2-3 females and then another quarter with individual cages in it for the gravid females, or for sick chams. just so you can keep a close eye on them.

if youre investing so much in a greenhouse id think youd want to provide optimal conditions, especially if youre intentions are to make money from breeding.

if you havent kept chameleons and arent schooled on the intricacies of their husbandry and maintenance, youll find them a bit more than a step up from snakes. there is a lot more room for error. im just saying i hope you know what you'll be getting yourself into XD

Edit*

also with the 4th quarter for the gravid or potentially ill chameleons. this whole other area could provide a staging area to phase new females into and then old out of primary enclosures. so then theoretically you could have more breeding females per given area.

ANNND if you partition as ive suggested you can then try you hand with another chameleon species like panthers later down the road once you get comfortable with your setup and cycling

PitViper said:

"Pretty much were just gonna let them lay where they want and let the eggs hatch on there own."

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youll end up having to cover them with an open bottom screen cage or something so they dont get eaten by the adults, and haha ive had to pick 50+ baby veileds out of a tree once, its neither a fun nor a short process. theyre kind of hard to find being chameleons and all

PitViper said:

"But you really think they will eat threw the plastic lining of the greenhouse walls? "

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what sort of lining are we talking? youre making one of those greenhouses out of the pliable plastic sheets! that explains why expense dosnt seem to be a huge concern of yours. if its like thick gauge opaque trashbag plastic.... id say theres a chance. and id be more concerned with rodents and such. youre also gonna want to be concered with debris during storms puncturing it. but yeah id say the crickets probably wont be eating through that.

I dont mean to sound ignorant or anything but this territorial issue doesnt seem like it would be a problem in such a large area.

A few years ago before people really started to pick the area clean it wasnt uncommon to find 50 veileds a night in a 2 acre area. These guys used to be in every tree and bush you walked past. lol. In the wild from what ive seen they tend to establish there own little niches in various parts.

They have there own way of dealing with the problem. The babies are only found up to around 3 feet above ground while the adults at are at the very top. Its just there own way of survival. There instinct tells them what is safe and what is not.

On the issue of being able to find the babies. That wont be a problem at all. We just have to do it at night. When you shine a flashlight on them they shine a florescent green and are fairly easy to spot.


I guess plastic lining was the wrong thing to say. Its more of a plastic panel. but when mentioned before to stay away from acrylic thats what caught me off guard. The material isnt meant to filter light out it allows the light in and keeps the heat in. Otherwise it wouldnt be used for plants, they need the light just as much as the chams will.


The whole point of doing such a large enclosure is to mimic there natural environment as much as we can.

PitViper said:

I dont mean to sound ignorant or anything but this territorial issue doesnt seem like it would be a problem in such a large area.

it seems you arent considering all factors. while 50 may be a lot to spot at night over 2 acres, what you are providing is an excessively small area in comparison. are 5 of your proposed greenhouses (which by your standards would house 65 chams) going to cover a 2 acre zone? no and you are saying the height of your basic greenhouse is going to provide the height you would see naturally? with chameleons youre looking at 3d area not 2d acreage, they are strictly arboreal

A few years ago before people really started to pick the area clean it wasnt uncommon to find 50 veileds a night in a 2 acre area. These guys used to be in every tree and bush you walked past. lol. In the wild from what ive seen they tend to establish there own little niches in various parts. i think you fail to understand what a niche is, and the simple fact that all of the organisms in question are of the same species and in effect NICHE is proof enough of your ignorance

They have there own way of dealing with the problem.as a responsible keeper/breeder it should be of utmost importance to you that any issue will be minimized rather than claiming "they will sort it out on their own" yeah thats called neglect The babies are only found up to around 3 feet above ground while the adults at are at the very top. Its just there own way of survival. There instinct tells them what is safe and what is not.

On the issue of being able to find the babies. That wont be a problem at all. We just have to do it at night. When you shine a flashlight on them they shine a florescent green and are fairly easy to spot. and what saves them from hours of exposure to hungry adults? that are only being fed 1000 crickets a month? in a restricted area?


I guess plastic lining was the wrong thing to say. Its more of a plastic panel. but when mentioned before to stay away from acrylic thats what caught me off guard. The material isnt meant to filter light out it allows the light in and keeps the heat in. i know how a greenhouse works thast like 3rd grade science sonOtherwise it wouldnt be used for plants, they need the light just as much as the chams will. /sigh you seem to grossly underestimate the benefits of uvb and the terrible consequences of a lack there of being MBD aka metabolic bone disease. carnivorous reptiles (such as your snakes) can do without exposure to unfiltered sunlight because these nutrients are provided by their food (rats and other mammals) chameleons being insectivores must subcutaneously metabolize vitamin D3....sufficient light and heat for the growth of plants dosnt mean the specific wavelengths of ultraviolet necessary for being able to produce D3 will be present. in fact they wont be. simply put with your "enclosure" as described will require D3 supplementation


The whole point of doing such a large enclosure is to mimic there natural environment as much as we can. hmmmm florida isnt yemen and while its is more than ideal for procreation and sustaining the invasive veiled population, that dosnt mean it should ever be considered their "natural environment"

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the problem i have now is ive tried to provide you with information and tactics that would optimize your endeavor. in a more than respectful manner. as easy as they are you disregarded them and seemed to just be looking for some verification or self assurance that you wont absolutely fail. you may have some successful clutches, and it may go far better than i presume. but this is based on 12 years of my own experience as well a culmination of information ive absorbed from being an active member in online chameleon keeper communities.

if your prefer to disregard what ive had to say based on the fact that it does not conform with your plan. thats your deal. i didnt just spend all this time typing for my own effing heath. its because simply put "i know better than you" claiming ignorance and saying the things i have noted are irrelevant are not only an insult to me but the chameleon keeping community in general.

if you come asking with no experience for the betterment of your project, ive got all the love in the world. but your seeming complete disregard for any and all recommendations and suggestions is just intolerable.

you came here for help, im trying to. but it dosnt seem like you want to let me. just sayin.

You really need to get off you high horse here. I came here for suggestions not to get bashed on every idea i throw out from some kid.

When did i propose 5 greenhouses? And when did i say anything about 65 chams in each? I only ever mentioned 13 chams in the entire enclosure. Most peoples experience with chams is when housing them in the min size enclosures for the most part. Animals dont act the same when kept in smaller cages compared to larger. Thats a proven fact.

Secondly a NICHE is a position of an organism in a community. So when down sized to a specific species a niche falls into the lines of different age groups.

When you said that letting them sort it out on there own was "Neglect" no its not, its called Survival of the fittest and thats 3rd grade science SON. Of course there not gonna be left in there for too long after they hatch. Once babies are noticed in the enclosure they will be removed, put in smaller holding cages to grow out, then shipped to our wholesaler. Yeah a few might be lost but thats just how things happen.

Get off this 1000 crickets a month thing. I said before it was just a number i threw out there.

I fully understand the benefits of UVB lighting. And here your wrong. Acrylic panels (which to me are plastic) do let in UV wavelengths. They even make acrylic cages for chams, so there is no problem with that.

Ive been in the hobby for over 35 years. Ive raised everything from Alligators to monitors and tortoises. I clearly understand the concerns of MBD and have had to rehabilitate a few reptiles with this problem. I never did try to compare the chams to my pythons. I would never try to keep an animal that lives in trees the same way i keep an animal that lives underground.

And again i never said florida was there natural environment. What were trying to do is mimic the natural environment inside a greenhouse. The only reasoning for mentioning about them here in FL is that i have seen how they act in the wild.

Ive learned everything i know about this hobby from my own experience. Ive been told many many times that i wasnt gonna be able to do things but have always proven people wrong. I did come here for help. To get better ideas on how to make this enclosure more efficient. Not to be bashed by some kid and to be told that my whole plan is garbage. Thanks

/sigh. okay maybe i was a little mean, probably a bit condescending.

i apologize

simply put i was getting frustrated.

but you seem to be ignoring some well established basic husbandry.

certainly there is no one right way to do things. there is wiggle room.

youve got to understand most of us here are very concerned with providing optimal living conditions for our animals. and when i hear someone suggest they are going to provide living conditions in which there is any probability of them injuring or killing one another it kind of strums the wrong cord.

just so you get where im coming from. and why i turned into a pissy b****

and if its avoidable and its within your power to correct it i would most certainly call that neglect. to me they arent just a bunch of lizards to make a buck off of.

just to let you know "Most acrylics are now formulated with additives which block all UV transmission" you cant just get regular panels, there are ones for sunbeds and those arent readily available and i assume not cheap

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/uvinnature.htm

user motherlode chameleon has a greenhouse, he most certainly will know more about the appropriate panels and probably where to get them

private message him if you like
https://www.chameleonforums.com/members/motherlode-chameleon/

to clarify what i meant when i said

"while 50 may be a lot to spot at night over 2 acres, what you are providing is an excessively small area in comparison. are 5 of your proposed greenhouses (which by your standards would house 65 chams) going to cover a 2 acre zone? no and you are saying the height of your basic greenhouse is going to provide the height you would see naturally? with chameleons youre looking at 3d area not 2d acreage, they are strictly arboreal "

if you built 5 of the 3600 cubic foot enclosures (which would house 65 chameleons 13x5) it wouldnt cover 2 acres of wild space, especially if height is a factor. meaning your area is still very condensed in comparison to your 2 acre 50 cham example.

if you can optimize your output and overall health of your chameleons by tweaking you plan a bit why not?

if you dont trust me, thats fine. look for some other opinions.

if youre still going by your original plan too thats up to you. id like to know how it works out. honestly, its not as though ive done this myself and im making assumptions. based on my own experiences and common knowledge, but still assumptions.

all the suggestions ive made are in hopes that you do succeed. and if you prove me wrong ill be glad to take the blow.

becuase we will all learn something of it. youre willing to take a risk with your chameleons health that i wouldnt. not that it will compromise their health it just seems to me, based on my experiences, high risk.

you should take some of my suggestions into consideration tho

I agree with him. We've all said things that you seem to be ignoring. I'm not trying to jump on you, just worried about these animals you will be buying.

Even though the green house is large, with the amount of chams in this cage they are bound to meet somewhere in this cage. If they don't physically hurt each other, it will put a great amount of stress on them. I don't believe you are stimulating a natural environment, for I don't believe you'd ever see thirteen veiled in that small of an area. Ever. The difference between the fifty chams in two acres and this, regarding size to cham ratio, is that in those two acres it doesn't just stop and get blocked with walls. If they feel threatened they can run and hide out of the way and area. Here they can't. They will hit walls and no longer be able to run from what is threatening them.

Not only is this a concern, but there are some questions to consider with this as well. Do you have the time of day to check over each day every cham to make sure he/she is safe and healthy.? Do you have the money to pay for any vet bills that will come up if more then one cham gets hurt.? Do you have the money and time to care for each baby that might hatch, whenever they hatch.? Since your looking at them always being together this could happen whenever. Each baby will need its own cage and what not until its of age to be sold. Are you really prepared for what you are asking for right now.?

Just some things to think of.

Alright so it seems like this whole thread had just gone from one misunderstanding from another. And got a little out of hand. Im not trying to just ignore ur info just that it seems im not giving enough info to help you better understand where im coming from.

The company that ive been looking into for the acrylic is Aristech Acrylic, which is based in KY. They have a product called SolarCast Acrylic. This is the product im aiming towards. But it will only be used at the top.

The buddy of mine whom im doing this project with is wanting to have complete metal screening sides. But for the winter months there will be plastic tarps that will unravel from the sides to protect them from the cold. It will also be used during fowl weather.

We can always make this enclosure taller by all means that wont effect the cost of this project by much.

In our defense, everytime we try and tell you that that is not enough room, you seem to shoot it down or ignore. We are just worried for the animals, and don't want this to be doomed to failure from the start. We're here to help, and that's what were trying to do.

Now with the layout of this whole thing. If i do section it off it will just allow me to put more chams inside. What if we took the size from 12x25 to 14x25 and divided the whole thing up into multiple enclosures inside the whole.

Now a company called The Chameleon Company, which is located about an hour from me has done this successfully with panthers. They use the green house idea but have many small enclosures inside. But a bit to small for my tastes.

How about running 3 rows of cages threw the house. One on each side and one down the center. We can do 3x5 footprints down the sides which would give me 10 cages all together. Then down the center do 2.5x2.5 footprint cages. That would give me 10 of those as well. Or even 1.5x2.5 footprints running back to back down the center giving me 20 small cages. These can be used as the grow outs while leaving the larger ones for the adults.

Now would 3x5 by x-amount of height be good enough for single pairs? Or still only 1 per enclosure?


On a side note- not being able to find 13 chams in such a small area. i have not personally seen it but have been told multiple times. 10 years ago in the area i mentioned before. There is a section that is exactly 10 Acres in size. Basically a safe zone for those who were allowed to catch these guys. (the surrounding area if your seen on the property you were shot at, still to this day it applies. Someone gets shot about every 2 months) They were pulling out 100 chams a night. On a regular bases 3 days a week. These things were literally everywhere.

I wish i lived in florida back then. Anymore pickings have got so bad ur luck to find 5 in a months time. just to many people go and get them. The insane thing is these guys arent normal chams there the high turquoise and sunburst types.

Will the cages be see through.? They get stressed at the sight of each other as well, reason why they can't be in glass tanks either. They see their reflection and it makes them mad. If they aren't see through, I believe it could work. With one cham in each one. Always stick with one cham in each one unless its like a hoe or meller. And then only under strict watch.