More questions on coccidia

Ever since i found out my w/c had coccidia i have been doing research on it but i still have a few questions that i can't find answers to.

1. Do i give the probiotics during, before, or after the start of treatment? Or all of the above? I have the meds and plan to start them within the next day or two. My cham shows no signs of illness at all which is why i haven't started already.

2. I've also read that you should give more than recommended on the package because they need a really good dosage of it. Is that true?

3. Now i understand why you said you cleaned the cage everyday, because of their life cycle, but have heard both bleach and water and ammonia and water. Which ones works best?

4. I also read that i should put down paper towels. I'm assuming this is to catch the feces and to help prevent the spread to the cage. Is this a good idea considering the bottom of his cage right now is screen?

5. I'm assuming i should throw out the live plants and the vines and branches that i have in the enclosure as well, right?

6. I'm thinking of just getting a silk plant for now and like you said a clothes line. Should i change the rope daily? Or just clean it?

7. I also found out that just about every beardie does have coccidia in at least small amounts. I told the vet that i wanted to treat my beardies even though they show no signs of ill health only because i didn't want to cross-contaminate my chams. He told me that he didn't think it was possible that it is usually species specific. I also read that in another article. What do you think?

Sorry for all the questions but this coccidia really worries me and i want to make sure i take care of it correctly.

Debby

i'm hoping somebody can answer these questions for me. If not all of them at least some of them.

Debby

Hey Debbie, see my answer below:

chamlover said:

1. Do i give the probiotics during, before, or after the start of treatment? Or all of the above?
Albon is the one medicine that is claimed to kill all the beneficial bacteria.
But, the jury is still out on that. Dr. Greek does not recommend probiotics. as far as I know, the idea of probiotics is to recover the loss, so AFTER the treatment regiment seems to make more sense to me.


2. I've also read that you should give more than recommended on the package because they need a really good dosage of it. Is that true?
I read once in the beardie website that it actually true. But, i have no first hand experience in administering probiotics since i end up not doing it at all after the albon treatment

3. Now i understand why you said you cleaned the cage everyday, because of their life cycle, but have heard both bleach and water and ammonia and water. Which ones works best?
Ammonia works best but the smell can be too strong. Bleach and followed with antibacterial soap will not kill coccidia cyst. But, they will help in loosening up the stickiness of the cyst; so, they can be washed by water current. But, so far, if you really want to kill the cyst, the only thing working is hot boiling water. Some say, the steam cleaner work wonderfully (since the steam is hot). I used the steamer and so far so good. But, i don't dare to say it 100% worked.

4. I also read that i should put down paper towels. I'm assuming this is to catch the feces and to help prevent the spread to the cage. Is this a good idea considering the bottom of his cage right now is screen?
It's a good idea and a very efficient one.

5. I'm assuming i should throw out the live plants and the vines and branches that i have in the enclosure as well, right?
unfortunately, yes. If you are really afraid of the reinfestation. Maybe, just plant the live plants in your garden

6. I'm thinking of just getting a silk plant for now and like you said a clothes line. Should i change the rope daily? Or just clean it?
i'm not sure about this rope thing. If this thing can still remain intact after being boiled. Go ahead and boiled the rope to sterilize it.

7. I also found out that just about every beardie does have coccidia in at least small amounts. I told the vet that i wanted to treat my beardies even though they show no signs of ill health only because i didn't want to cross-contaminate my chams. He told me that he didn't think it was possible that it is usually species specific. I also read that in another article. What do you think?
Separate your beardie equipment from your chameleon. Always wash hand before and after touching any of your chameleon related stuffs you'll be fine. Better yet, wear a disposable glove before you care for your beardie, throw it away, wash your hand, and wear a new glove when you are about to care for your chameleon

Sorry for all the questions but this coccidia really worries me and i want to make sure i take care of it correctly.

Debby

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Hope that helps

I had good results with Appertex on my LTC melleri. He lost weight over the winter, and wasn't gainign it back. He was stressed by low temps, and them coccidia seemed to overwhelm him in the spring. A single dose of appertex (so far) didn't phase him one bit. he never acted strange, went off feed (in fact his appetite increased since then) - never lost a step.

he's gaining weight, and I'm going to test him again to see if he's all clear.

Appertex was reccomended by people from ADCHAM. Albon is rough on them at best - you WILL see side affects. I suggest looking into appertex usage on other reptiles, such as beardies. It's not as widely available as al;bon, but you can order it from any pidgeon supply place without a perscription.

Howdy,

I'm still gathering data (poop samples) from my 5-6 yr-old Veiled after using Appertex at various levels starting back on May 15th. Timid picked-up coccidia 8-9 months ago when he went out on a date . I've been battling it with various drugs ever since. It seemed that I could always get it down to about 10% of the maximum coccidia count but he could never quite clear it from his system no matter how long I kept using the drugs. Drugs like Albon and TMS don't kill coccidia but they knock them down to what is usually manageable by a strong (young?) immune system. Appertex (and maybe drugs like Ronidazle, Toltrazuril, and Ponazuril) actually has a "cidal" effect, killing coccidia. Appertex is supposed to kill-off (all of it?) coccidia in pigeons with one dose. One dose didn't do much of anything for Timid. Since it appears to be a very safe drug in pigeons, I put on my blindfold and began dosing Timid with one pill per day for 3 days and then every other day after that. I'm at dose #10 so far. I'm cautiously optimistic since the last sample was all the way down to maybe 2% of max count. I'm holding my breath for the next couple of poop samples. It could have just been an odd sample that looked to be down to 2%. I will be continuing to dose every other day (maybe every 3rd day) until I'm convinced that it is really wiped-out. I'll let everyone know how the next samples turn out. He doesn't poop very often so it'll be many days before I get multiple samples to evaluate.

Hello,
I'm new to chameleons. How does a chameleon 'get' coccidia and what should I look for?
Thanx

Blue Eyes said:

Hello,
I'm new to chameleons. How does a chameleon 'get' coccidia and what should I look for?
Thanx

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Coccidia comes from fecal infected ground. Which is, honestly, everywhere.)

majority of animals (including you) have traces of coccidia in the system. The population, however, is under control of the host' immune system.
making them to live harmoniously in the intestine.
During the time when your chameleon under a heavy stress, his immune system will loose its effectiveness. During this, coccidia population burst out of control.
Then the nightmare comes. Coccidia way to reproduce is particularly nasty. They burrow themselves in the cell of your digestive system and reproduce inside the cell. When they are ready, they will burst out of the cell and reinfect the neighboring cells causing the host' intestine to be thin and soon ruptured in the case of heavy population attack.

Coccidia is a protozoan that thrive under humid environment.
They are everywhere, certainly on the soil around you. Most of the time they are buried under. During rain, however, they resurface.
They can be killed by normal way of killing microorganism, but one cycle of them is difficult to kill. During hardship, coccidia develop a strong thick wall called cyst and somewhat live in a suspended animation until the environment change.

This cyst is very sticky and cannot be killed even using the strongest bleach concentration that are safe for you to use.
When these annoying creatures in the oocyst stage, they practically almost impossible to kill except by boiling water.
There is a treatment for coccidia but the hardest thing is to prevent the reinfestation.

symptoms to watch for? how do you know your chamy has it bad?

JoshCrane1 said:

symptoms to watch for? how do you know your chamy has it bad?

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diarrhea.
loss of appetite
blood in the stool (this is severe).
eyes closing rolleyes
dehydration (part of the diarrhea).

and of all, presence of coccidia in fecal matter (ask your vet to check for coccidia when u do fecal floatation test)

O ALMOST FORGOT, in some rare cases, coccidia can also cause impaction and pinched nerves.

thanks. to the rescue again.

Yes, thank you for the quick answers to questions.

Dave Weldon said:

Howdy,

I'm still gathering data (poop samples) from my 5-6 yr-old Veiled after using Appertex at various levels starting back on May 15th. Timid picked-up coccidia 8-9 months ago when he went out on a date . I've been battling it with various drugs ever since. It seemed that I could always get it down to about 10% of the maximum coccidia count but he could never quite clear it from his system no matter how long I kept using the drugs. Drugs like Albon and TMS don't kill coccidia but they knock them down to what is usually manageable by a strong (young?) immune system. Appertex (and maybe drugs like Ronidazole, Toltrazuril, and Ponazuril) actually has a "cidal" effect, killing coccidia. Appertex is supposed to kill-off (all of it?) coccidia in pigeons with one dose. One dose didn't do much of anything for Timid. Since it appears to be a very safe drug in pigeons, I put on my blindfold and began dosing Timid with one pill per day for 3 days and then every other day after that. I'm at dose #10 so far. I'm cautiously optimistic since the last sample was all the way down to maybe 2% of max count. I'm holding my breath for the next couple of poop samples. It could have just been an odd sample that looked to be down to 2%. I will be continuing to dose every other day (maybe every 3rd day) until I'm convinced that it is really wiped-out. I'll let everyone know how the next samples turn out. He doesn't poop very often so it'll be many days before I get multiple samples to evaluate.

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Howdy All,
(Gee, I get to quote myself .)

A follow-up to treating Timid, my ~6yr-old Veiled, for Coccidia.

I've now been treating him for almost 60 days with Appertex (Clazuril). I continue to remain cautiously optimistic with the results. I've watched the oocyst count drop from thousands per microscope slide down to hundreds (as also happened temporarily with other drugs) and more recently down to 10's then 1 and now 0. While there still may be some lurking in his gut, this is the first time that I've seen an empty slide in over 9 months . The real test will be what things look like over the next months.

Dave. That's AWESOME news. Zero??!!

Are you going to stop treatment now?

Howdy Gary,

I'll continue treatment until I get a few more clean test results. I'll guess another couple of weeks minimum .

Crossing my fingers for you and Timid.

Dave Weldon said:

Howdy Gary,

I'll continue treatment until I get a few more clean test results. I'll guess another couple of weeks minimum .

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Howdy All,

Continued good news. His fecal floats are still coccidia-free.

His last dose of Appertex (Clazuril) ended-up being back on 07/07/08 and that makes it almost 2 weeks since then. I was not planning on that being his last dose but after he got picky about eating injected feeders around the 7th and the next fecal also tested free of coccidia, it just ended then . I'll continue testing every poop for a long time to come.

Incredible news for all of us! An alternative to the dreaded Albon that also kills the coccidia rather than lowering the count.

Congratulations on your find Dave!

Howdy Gary,

It'll be even more useful when someone with a younger chameleon tries it who also has access to a microscope. I'd like to see how fast it works with their critter. Any nearby volunteers ? Appertex is about $30 for 30 doses. With any luck Appertex might knock it out in a week.

Here's crossing my fingers it won't be any of mine. Although in a week or so I guess you'll tell me.

Dave, eversince his bad reaction of Albon treatment, Dr. Greek told me to stop his treatment altogether.
Dr. Greek suspect that it was more of the stress of administering the medicine that causes him to stop eating.. i guess we never know..

I haven't actually had the chance of checking the fecal again.
He's managing on his own but i am guessing that most likely he's still battling them coccidia.

I would love to try the clazuril.
But, i'm a bit afraid that force medicating him will make him endure that road again.. I'm for one don't want to endure the experience of force feeding him again.
I wonder if you have tips on reducing the stress from administrating med..
I'm thinking of perhaps injecting the med into hornworms... but, i am not sure if this is effective.

What is your opinion? BTW, he's a year old now.