Importing

I was just wonder what your guys thoughts were on importing chameleons. Isn't there enough genetic variation the the captive population to negate any genetic defects caused by having similar genes? It seems pretty traumatic for these animals to be taken out of their natural environment and then put in a cage. Opposed to always being in a cage. I'm no PETA in anyway. I just thought this might start a good fourm.

What's your opinion?

I feel that it's pretty much unnecessary now... we have tons of Chams in the US of all types, so far as I know

I feel like the more specimens there are in captivity the better. Don't get me wrong i'm not saying that we should take every single animal we come across into captivity, but we should build a strong world wide group of captive animals whilst being responsible with the numbers we take from the wild. There WILL come a day when alot of animals not just chameleons will be on the verge of extinction alot are already due to los of habitat and enviromental changes some even at the hand of humans!

let's say for example that the panther chameleon went extinct in the wild, then there will stil be a thriving captive population that can be used to re introduce the species to the wild.

I hope i made sence lol my head is buzzing around topics like this.

xephyr17 said:

I feel that it's pretty much unnecessary now... we have tons of Chams in the US of all types, so far as I know

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I do not entirely agree. I think it depends on the locale. I agree that there is enough genetic diversity when it comes to locales like Ambilobe, Nosy Be, or Nosy Faly. however there are MANY locales that we do not have strong populations in the US. Consider Nosy Mitsio, or the recently acquired, Nosy Valiha and Masoala, and these are just among the Panther Chameleons. There are SO MANY chameleons that are rarely, if ever, available in the US.

There remain a significant number of species that are not bred in the US at all. I feel that as long as we as hobbyist respect CITES quotas and have the interest of the animals in mind, we can import WC animals will minimal impact on the WC populations.

As mentioned above, I think you will find that there is minimal import of the more common Panther locales.

Saldarya said:

There remain a significant number of species that are not bred in the US at all. I feel that as long as we as hobbyist respect CITES quotas and have the interest of the animals in mind, we can import WC animals will minimal impact on the WC populations.

As mentioned above, I think you will find that there is minimal import of the more common Panther locales.

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I think at the moment the best protocol is staying with the CITES and IUCN experts protocol. However I too question CITES permits when they allow species that are listed as endangered species to be legally traded. Those species are fighting for their species existence and in my book those are not species worthy or justified of being allowed in the chameleon trade. That is at least until conservation action has happened and the species has been delisted to a less threatened listing other than as an endangered species. Until that happens those "Endangered Species" in my book should not be seen in the international chameleon hobby.

Although we may not have as many species as Europe or Asia our policies by abiding to CITES trade does conserve species much more than un-managed collecting as seen in the mid 1990's. We actually have got access to a great amount of chameleon species even though it may seem as though the USA does not.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Lpsouth1978 said:

I do not entirely agree. I think it depends on the locale. I agree that there is enough genetic diversity when it comes to locales like Ambilobe, Nosy Be, or Nosy Faly. however there are MANY locales that we do not have strong populations in the US. Consider Nosy Mitsio, or the recently acquired, Nosy Valiha and Masoala, and these are just among the Panther Chameleons. There are SO MANY chameleons that are rarely, if ever, available in the US.

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+1 you pretty much said exactly what I was thinking.

It really is a locale specific argument.

xephyr17 said:

... we have tons of Chams in the US of all types, so far as I know

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No, we don't. There are but a small fraction of different species here, and of that small fraction the only ones being bred in quantity are panthers and veiled.

Mike Fisher said:

No, we don't. There are but a small fraction of different species here, and of that small fraction the only ones being bred in quantity are panthers and veiled.

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There are actually more species available to the USA than what is normally seen. USA importers can bring in many more species if they are motivated too. A good example is the genus Kinyongia the species tenuis, oxyrhina, and uthmoelleri all can be imported they just have got small quotas and importers have got to compete for limited quota animals. These species were seen in the USA on the forums regularly until about 2009. Importers should still be able to import these Kinyongia species into the USA. Last year there was an importer who brought in 1.2 Trioceros oweni to the USA that is a rare species for any part of the world. This importer is an importer who say he is capable of bringing in many other West African species.

For the most part the importer just has to be willing to make the effort to acquire the legal export paperwork from some of these African countries then these chameleons can be imported. Some countries, to the best of my knowledge, such as Uganda and Cameroon the importers normally say the import paperwork is more difficult to acquire.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Getting them here isn't necessarily the issue, it's how poorly they breed sustainably once they're here! Look at species that do get imported regularly, like melleri, how many people manage to hatch and raise babies a year? And out of those, some of the clutches that do hatch out crash and die after a few weeks/months, so that's not sustainable success either. And it's a similar story for other species as well. Maybe a couple/handful of people have success with a species but not enough to create a self-sustaining population in the US.

Edit - And let's not forget interest! For a lot of species there just isn't any wide-spread public interest to own them, much less invest the time and money into breeding them, so the people who do breed them don't find it profitable or worth the effort if no one will buy their offspring. So where there should be a captive bred market there is only a wild caught one instead, because it's cheaper for everyone involved.

Olimpia said:

Getting them here isn't necessarily the issue, it's how poorly they breed sustainably once they're here! Look at species that do get imported regularly, like melleri, how many people manage to hatch and raise babies a year? And out of those, some of the clutches that do hatch out crash and die after a few weeks/months, so that's not sustainable success either. And it's a similar story for other species as well. Maybe a couple/handful of people have success with a species but not enough to create a self-sustaining population in the US.

Edit - And let's not forget interest! For a lot of species there just isn't any wide-spread public interest to own them, much less invest the time and money into breeding them, so the people who do breed them don't find it profitable or worth the effort if no one will buy their offspring. So where there should be a captive bred market there is only a wild caught one instead, because it's cheaper for everyone involved.

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Trioceros melleri are one species that has been difficult to breed through out the decades whether in Europe, Asia or in North America. However the prospects of solving the enigma/dilema and breeding F3 is one factor that motivates and makes Melleri a desirable species in the hobby. If I was not keeping Calumma parsonii parsonii, Trioceros is the large species that most probably would be in my greenhouse. Saying people have not breed certain species and therefor we should not keep them is a similar situation to the 1990's. There were many nay sayers who said the genus Calumma could not be bred in captivity and the ones that were bred were flukes. Breeders in Europe and from people I have kept in contact in Asia have remarked and in some cases documented that the several species of Calumma can be bred for many species to the F1 generation at least and possible further.

Olympia as for "not any interest" that to me is just not an accurate statement at all. Just look at Jurgens thread "Some Nice Pictures" it is a thread of pictures of rare and exotic chameleon species. That thread is one of the Chameleon Forums most viewed if not the most viewed thread on the Chameleon Forum. I would say we have got enough interest.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/some-nice-pictures-90508/

I am going to say and experienced keepers already are acquainted with this. However if people are going to plan for an import of rare and exotic chameleons. That these chameleons are taken care of as best as they can before and during export. If these rare and exotic chameleons are not taken care of the prospects that they shall last long once they arrive is not great weather they are in Europe, Asia or North America. As well, ideally breeding programs for these rare and exotic imports should be already prepared to receive these species once they arrive (this we have seen with the imports of Bradypodions and Trioceros johnstonii).

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

I never said we shouldn't get them anymore because they are difficult to breed sustainably (I have a balcony full of WC melleri and plan on getting more) but that it's a big reason why we still have to import them in. Getting them is relatively easy, it's the keeping them going here once they are that is. And since they don't, we keep having to get more.

And you're saying there's a huge interest in breeding stuff like gracefuls, flap necks, and senegals? That's a big fat NOPE, and that's why Repticon is full of cheap little $20-40 wild caught chameleons that could be bred in captivity but because there is no interest they just really aren't. Between the fact that people don't really particularly want them, and the fact that most people would rather pay the $30 for a WC and take their chances than pay maybe $100 and get a captive bred one, it's not a particularly tantalizing project for breeders to jump on. And there isn't an overwhelming interest in keeping and breeding lots of other species that we have access to, like how many people do you see passionately dedicated to breeding Kinyongia species? Or Trioceros species? Or any Furcifer species that isn't a panther? They would be relatively short lists of names. And the list gets shorter as people burn out, or leave the hobby to have children, etc.

It's one thing to Oooh and Aaah over photos of pretty chameleons, but I wonder how many of those pageviews are people who are saving up to acquire a bunch of individuals and start their own project or are just veiled and panther keepers that enjoy living vicariously through Jurgen's photos, you know? I think most people are just casual keepers thinking that the photos are nice to look at but are content with their small handful of pet chameleons. Especially when it takes years and thousands to get a CB project going with something tricky to breed, most people prefer to just stick to their couple panthers or veileds and leave it at that.

I'm on your side, I wish it were different, but I think those are two big reasons why we still import so many WC chameleons in.

One only needs to browse the photo thread of chameleons jvo to see how many species that we do not have in the USA. True that those chameleons are available to import, just not enough market for the importer to bother with. Sometimes cristatus and deremensis take months to sell at a very reasonable price, while the panthers fly off the shelves @ $300 ea.

IMO, that is why we don't have a very good variety here compared to Europe.

Olimpia said:

like how many people do you see passionately dedicated to breeding Kinyongia species? Or Trioceros species?

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Raises hand....

Olimpia said:

And there isn't an overwhelming interest in keeping and breeding lots of other species that we have access to, like how many people do you see passionately dedicated to breeding Kinyongia species? Or Trioceros species?

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Its been a while since I've been on the forums here, but I'd like to raise my hand on this one too. I've been breeding and keeping T. deremensis for years now, and its not easy. Both you and Mike have made some good points. Its a tough market out there for anything other than panthers and veiled chams most days. I've have often wondered why people don't focus more specifically on acclimating imports so that they are healthy and able to breed more successfully in captivity, but like you said Olimpia, getting a breeding project together for some of these trickier species really does takes a lot of time and care. And it is unfortunate that we don't have a market that respects this for the most part.

Nicole Paddock
T.R. Herp

LovitaVelvet said:

I've been breeding and keeping T. deremensis for years now, and its not easy.

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Tell me about it...I had a pair for over four years back in the 90's and they never bred for me. I didn't know you had to cool them way down in the winter. I'm considering having another go at them.

Mike Fisher said:

One only needs to browse the photo thread of chameleons jvo to see how many species that we do not have in the USA. True that those chameleons are available to import, just not enough market for the importer to bother with.

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Not all of them are legal.

Trace said:

Not all of them are legal.

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I assumed shipping CB from Europe would be ok if the CITES paperwork was done properly. Forgive me if I'm mistaken.

Olimpia said:

I never said we shouldn't get them anymore because they are difficult to breed sustainably (I have a balcony full of WC melleri and plan on getting more) but that it's a big reason why we still have to import them in. Getting them is relatively easy, it's the keeping them going here once they are that is. And since they don't, we keep having to get more.

And you're saying there's a huge interest in breeding stuff like gracefuls, flap necks, and senegals? That's a big fat NOPE, and that's why Repticon is full of cheap little $20-40 wild caught chameleons that could be bred in captivity but because there is no interest they just really aren't. Between the fact that people don't really particularly want them, and the fact that most people would rather pay the $30 for a WC and take their chances than pay maybe $100 and get a captive bred one, it's not a particularly tantalizing project for breeders to jump on. And there isn't an overwhelming interest in keeping and breeding lots of other species that we have access to, like how many people do you see passionately dedicated to breeding Kinyongia species? Or Trioceros species? Or any Furcifer species that isn't a panther? They would be relatively short lists of names. And the list gets shorter as people burn out, or leave the hobby to have children, etc.

It's one thing to Oooh and Aaah over photos of pretty chameleons, but I wonder how many of those pageviews are people who are saving up to acquire a bunch of individuals and start their own project or are just veiled and panther keepers that enjoy living vicariously through Jurgen's photos, you know? I think most people are just casual keepers thinking that the photos are nice to look at but are content with their small handful of pet chameleons. Especially when it takes years and thousands to get a CB project going with something tricky to breed, most people prefer to just stick to their couple panthers or veileds and leave it at that.

I'm on your side, I wish it were different, but I think those are two big reasons why we still import so many WC chameleons in.

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Olimpia

Gracefuls, Flapnecks, and Senegals are a BIG FAT NOT EVEN TO THE POINT! I am talking about rare and exotic species of chameleons. The three species you just mentioned are not rare or exotic species. The hobby is flooded with these species and I happen to think the CITES quotas for these species are grossly high. To make things a bit clearer rare and exotic species are species that are not commonly seen species normally from the genera Archaius, Bradypodion, Calumma, Trioceros, Kinyongia, Furcifer and Chamaeleo. The three you list are seen much too often to be considered rare and exotic.

As far as interest, your statements are not accurate to me. If your on Facebook Cainyongia is still very much alive even though he is not keeping any Kinyongia right now. Olimpia you fail to see that we had a great stable of Kinyongia breeders that stopped keeping chameleons (some of them still have got eggs incubating) since they started family's (Chad and Louis) as of a couple years ago 2012ish that are being slowly replaced (Mike, Possibly a couple others). Olimpia you fail to see that there are many people on the Chameleon Forums who are breeding many species from the genus Trioceros, such as a great breeding group program of Trioceros quadricornis plus a self proclaimed Jackson farmer in the USA. I have got Trioceros pfefferi, deremensis and jacksonii merumontanus all of which I plan to breed once I have got time in my crazy schedule. Since you fail to see the obvious interest accumulated in Jurgens thread there are many people me included that prefer the rare/exotic species over Panthers and Veileds (Even though I keep Panthers). Have you forgotten about all the threads about rare and exotic species before Jurgen can to the Chameleon Forums? Some of the best threads on the Chameleon Forums which it seems you have forgotten about were about rare and seldom seen exotic species of your "Dream Species". To say there is no interest I think is not an accurate statement and if you need more evidence go on Facebook and research a bit.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich