Important Health Issue, Please Help!!!

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - One year old male blue bar ambilobe panther chameleon.

Handling - Every day as of the last two months.

Feeding - Before his current problem I fed him 10 medium crickets daily gut-loaded with "cricket crack" and Fluker's orange cubes. Now he is currently on reptaboost only.

Supplements - before his current problem I used to dust food with calcium without D3 daily and give herptivite and calcium WITH D3 twice a month.

Watering - Mist sessions via Mistking. 30 second intervals 5 times daily.

Fecal Description - Was normal brown with white urates until about 4 months ago. Feces starting becoming watery with orange urates, and now they're all pudding-like and tan-colored due to the reptaboost.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - 2" x 2" x 4" screen enclosure.

Lighting - two basking bulbs and one tube reptisun 5.0 UVB light.

Temperature - Temps range from 85F at the top of the enclosure to about 60F-65F degrees at the bottom.

Humidity - humidity is on average about 50% all day. I have a mistking which sprays for 30 second intervals 5 times a day.

Plants - I have two live umbrella plants in the enclosure.

Placement - The enclosure is in my room on top of my dresser. Very low traffic area. The top of the enclosure is a little over 6 feet from the ground.

Location - Southern California, Long Beach area

Current Problem -

Hey everyone, I've had my male panther chameleon, Yoshi, for just about a year now. I've been lucky enough to watch him grow from a baby into a beautiful adult. Unfortunately though, for the last two months, he has not been eating and I have been supplementing him via "reptaboost" as directed by a vet. I've taken him to the vet three times and they cannot figure out what is wrong with him. His symptoms started about four months ago with loss of balance and grabbing his own limbs. I took him to the vet in fear that it was MBD, and the vet prescribed a sugar-coated calcium to give him orally every day. The problem still persisted and his poop started becoming watery with orange urates. After a few weeks and no progress, I took Yoshi to the vet again for a second opinion, this time with a poop sample. The vet checked the sample and found no parasites, but still prescribed Baytril, thinking that Yoshi had some kind of bacterial infection. After using the Baytril as directed, I still saw no progress. I took him the vet a third time, (this time going to the highly recommended Dr. Greek in Yorba Linda, CA) and he ran a blood sample. Dr. Greek told me that everything was fine except that Yoshi's blood sugar level was high (due to the sugar-coated calcium I had been giving him as recommended by the first vet). I also mentioned that Yoshi had not been eating at all for days as of recently, so Dr. Greek suggested using reptaboost. I've been feeding him directly daily for two months now and as of the past 3 days, he has lost weight and remained motionless with his eyes closed all day. He does have a very crooked spine going down to the end of his tail (which I assume happened from his previous falls). All the vets noticed it but didn't think it was of any concern. Has anyone experienced anything like this? My poor chameleon is on his deathbed and I have no idea what to do...Is he still savable or too far-gone?

Do you ever take him outside for natural sunlight? Have you changed out your UVB bulb since you got him? Do you gutload your crickets?

Yes, to all of the above. I gut-loaded crickets using fluker's orange cubes and recently before Yoshi's problems developed I had started using "cricket crack" as a gutload. I also took Yoshi outside for natural sunlight on sunny days. And yes, I changed his UVB light about 6 or 7 months after I first got him.

Yes Kevin I have.
Can you contact me at my profile page. I want to speak to you about a national breeder that I got my first male panther from and have had problems with him like your problems ever since.
I have always given him the best care. from vivarium, lighting, food, supplements everything you are supposed to do to keep a cham healthy. I now have 6 other chams and have never had the same problems with them. Hope to hear from you soon

Has anyone else experienced something like this or have any words of advice?

hi kevin, i'm happy to try and help, and i appreciate you beginning a thread before contacting me---here's some random thoughts--

-i would suggest a fecal sample sent to one of the national labs--they are more expensive, but generally far more accurate than what most vets can do in a typical hospital. my particular concern would be unicellular parasites that don't show up well on many tests; i.e. giardia, cryptosporidium, entamoeba. they shed eggs intermittently and the numbers will also be reduced by dilute diarrhea, so the tests at the big labs look for antibodies or antigens and are generally definitive. something like crypto has about a 30% chance of being identified on any random fecal smear, 99%+ in the labs.

-i used to forcefeed a fresh insect mash that i would make up w/ some added meds, and thought i couldn't do better as it was so natural. however, i was wrong. when the GI tract may be inflamed or not functioning 100% for whatever reason, it has difficulty digesting the mash/chitin. i then switched to Oxbow Critical Care Fine Grind, and from there to Lafeber's Emeraid Exotic Carnivore. Reptoboost has too much phosphorus; Emeraid has much better ratios and about double the nutritional analysis of protein/fat/etc. Oxbow did not impress me much, but the Emeraid has impressed me a lot. anecdotally i believe i have seen a huge change using it as a critical care diet, chams perking up greatly after 3 days or so.

-in general the Fluker's orange cubes are ok for providing hydration, but lousy for a gutload. Cricket Crack is much, much better although he may not have been on it long enough to have it's advantages take effect.

-i am "anti-cricket" in general. whether he swings around to normal or you begin again i would strongly suggest you read up on varying the diet.

-dunno how he is drinking. he is getting some water w/ the Reptiboost, but i wouldn't be surprised if he still needs more hydration. a vet would make the call, but if you were here for instance i would show you how to give him fluids. your vet would likely do the same. virtually all crashing chams will need additional fluids and it can be what tips the coin in either direction.


-as you don't have an answer as to what the problem(s) might be, you pretty much have 4 choices:

-back to the vet for updated bloodwork. they now have baseline bloodwork on him so it's often productive to see what's changing. and sometimes it's called "going on the hunt"; rads/US/endoscopy are all other diagnostic tools to rule diseases in and rule others out, needless to say they will cost.
-back to the vet for "shotgun therapy". no/some/all diagnostics and using several meds to try and cover as many bases as possible w/o harming him.
-continue what you are doing but with some of the differences i mentioned above.
-continue as is, hope for the best but expect the worst. 'nuff said.

sometimes diseases scream their names, and sometimes they whisper like a ventriloquist. often both will occur through the duration, one of the reasons repeated labwork is indicated.

that's really all i've got from here--if you do return to your vet i would suggest staying with Dr. Greek. let me know if there's anything else i can answer, and keep us updated.

good luck!

o-

Thank you so much for your input Dr. O! You have no idea how much I appreciate it. The fact that the veterinarians I've taken Yoshi to can't seem to figure out what his problem is, it has made me question my husbandry even though they've told me I've been doing everything correctly. I think I'm going to give the "emeraid" a shot.

KevinN1 said:

Thank you so much for your input Dr. O! You have no idea how much I appreciate it. The fact that the veterinarians I've taken Yoshi to can't seem to figure out what his problem is, it has made me question my husbandry even though they've told me I've been doing everything correctly. I think I'm going to give the "emeraid" a shot.

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i know you edited this, but it's a good question and i'd like it up here for others--

"Thank you so much for your input Dr. O.
I looked up "emeraid" and saw that there are three versions: for carnivores, for omnivores, and for herbivores. Seeing how chameleons are insectivores, which of the three options would you suggest using, should I decide to try it?"

i called and spoke w/ a nutritionist there; they have a large diagram on their website suggesting which formulas for which species, and Old World Chams were under the Carnivore edition. essentially their studies show that in insectivore diet is very similar to a carnivore diet; certainly more so than herbivore and apparently even omnivore. so that's what i'm using, and i like it.

Yeah, I edited it because I realized that you did specify the carnivore edition. I missed that the first time I read your post. But thank you again Dr. O

Hello once again everyone. I'm sorry for posting such graphic pictures, but I figured they would help you guys get a better idea of what my little guy is going through. Please, if anyone has experienced anything similar or has any ideas that may be helpful, I would appreciate it if you would share. I've taken Yoshi to the vet three times and they could not figure out what is wrong with him. I'm fairly certain that his spine may be the root of his problems since he has "kinks" all the way to the end of his tail. On the most severe spinal curvature at the end of his lower back, there are two bumps that stick out on his left side, and when I touch them (gently) he attempts to bite me, though his bite is very weak.

Kevin,

We talked about this. I think you should put him down. I don't think he can survive even with the supplements. He is in pain. Let him go I am soooooo sorry

Pics show what that vendor sold me. Not MBD, per vet rather in-breeding


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I work very hard to keep him as healthy as I can, but your guy is too far gone.

I'm not sure if this will help, but I would suggest trying to give him water, with a syringe. Also, get baby food (Chicken, beef, turkey etc.) and feed him. It may help. If you are going to give him water make sure you do it slowly and only give him little drops at a time, and wait about 15 seconds before you give him more water. His case seems really serious, and I cant diagnose anything, but if he is weak, just try and give him a little water and food. It might help....I hope everything will be okay! Good luck!

I agree with Fleetwood and I would have him humanely euthanized. He must be in pain. It is the right thing to do. I just had to put one of mine down about three weeks ago. It hurts badly, but we are not doing them a favor by keeping them alive when they are in pain or have little or no quality of life left. I am sorry...

Kevin,

I really don't have any answers for you as to what may have caused this, but I thought I would provide this link to an article about similar deformations found in a wild F. pardalis: http://www.herpetologynotes.seh-her...ng_Herpetology_Notes_Volume2_pages223-225.pdf The cause of those deformations was not determined, and who knows if they are related, but when I saw your photos, it immediately reminded me of this article.

At any rate, you can tell from the photos that your chameleon is dehydrated and thin. He definitely needs fluid supplements, and possibly more than simply oral dosages. He definitely seems to be extremely far gone and as stated already, may not survive regardless of continued treatment. As far as whether or not it would be more humane to have him euthanatized, I would talk to Dr. Greek explicitly about his thoughts on his pain and prognosis, and go from there. He should be able to help give you an honest opinion on what he thinks having seem and helped in his treatment.

Best of luck,

Chris

Chris Anderson said:

Kevin,

I really don't have any answers for you as to what may have caused this, but I thought I would provide this link to an article about similar deformations found in a wild F. pardalis: http://www.herpetologynotes.seh-her...ng_Herpetology_Notes_Volume2_pages223-225.pdf The cause of those deformations was not determined, and who knows if they are related, but when I saw your photos, it immediately reminded me of this article.

At any rate, you can tell from the photos that your chameleon is dehydrated and thin. He definitely needs fluid supplements, and possibly more than simply oral dosages. He definitely seems to be extremely far gone and as stated already, may not survive regardless of continued treatment. As far as whether or not it would be more humane to have him euthanatized, I would talk to Dr. Greek explicitly about his thoughts on his pain and prognosis, and go from there. He should be able to help give you an honest opinion on what he thinks having seem and helped in his treatment.

Best of luck,

Chris

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Hi Chris,

I found that article very interesting, since the national breeder that sold me my cham with the kinked tail blamed it on me.
My vet said it definitely not MBD and said this was a genetic defect either from in-breeding to maintain a certain coloration or a genetic defect in lineage that was allowed to continue to maintain a coloration. Either way I agree that Kevin's poor cham is too far gone. I pray that he would humanely have him put down. I feel for him.
Mine, I care for everyday by hand since the breeder refused to take responsibility for what they sold me.

Thank you for posting the link to that article Chris, it seems exactly like what Yoshi has, from the beginning of his spine down passed his pelvis to his tail. I don't know what could have caused this. I honestly thought it was MBD but after taking him to the vet and getting a blood analysis, his calcium levels turned out to be fine. Dr. Greek did tell me, however, that a deformed spinal column may pinch nerves and affect their motor skills, much like with us humans. Unfortunately, I still have no idea if that's what caused him to stop eating.


A question for Dr. O,

I just tried to purchase the Emeraid that you suggested in your post yesterday, but it seems that the product is only sold to licensed veterinarians. I called in with some questions and the woman I spoke to claimed that the reason it isn't sold to the public is because the product is almost like "prescription" medicine. You wouldn't know any other possible way I might be able to purchase it, would you? Or should I try seeing a veterinarian and attempt to purchase from them?

KevinN1 said:

Thank you for posting the link to that article Chris, it seems exactly like what Yoshi has, from the beginning of his spine down passed his pelvis to his tail. I don't know what could have caused this. I honestly thought it was MBD but after taking him to the vet and getting a blood analysis, his calcium levels turned out to be fine. Dr. Greek did tell me, however, that a deformed spinal column may pinch nerves and affect their motor skills, much like with us humans. Unfortunately, I still have no idea if that's what caused him to stop eating.


A question for Dr. O,

I just tried to purchase the Emeraid that you suggested in your post yesterday, but it seems that the product is only sold to licensed veterinarians. I called in with some questions and the woman I spoke to claimed that the reason it isn't sold to the public is because the product is almost like "prescription" medicine. You wouldn't know any other possible way I might be able to purchase it, would you? Or should I try seeing a veterinarian and attempt to purchase from them?

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hi kevin--

some diets are considered prescription-only and can only be sold by veterinarians as they are meant for specific issues, and if used improperly or the wrong diet selected, can lead to the death of an animal. since "normal" pet food wouldn't do that, it exemplifies the potentially intense effects that prescription diets can have.

frankly, i didn't know that Emeraid was considered prescription. granted, i generally only see it in vet practices in use or for sale, but still thought it could be purchased online/feed shops/pet stores; there's often a grey area w/ these type of products. however if that's what they say, then yes, you would need a prescription from a vet to purchase it. and the laws are universal and clear; it must be a vet that has examined your pet within the past 12 months. in your situation, either of your vets would be able to do that for you.

with that being explained, his photos that you posted really do look terrible and i cannot imagine that he is not suffering from multiple issues at this point. i really think that you need to either go full-bore w/ his care (and he needs ICU), or consider euthanasia. though the recommendations that i gave you earlier are sound, he appears too far gone for them to save his life. i absolutely agree w/ Chris that if you are still unsure a visit to Dr. Greek will help you decide which direction is best or even feasible. certainly if you do decide that euthanasia is the best option and can't see placing him in intensive care, then any vet can do the euth if Dr. Greek was a difficult trip for you.

so sorry for your situation,

o-

I wonder if it was possible that your UVB lights were some of the ones that you hear about people getting that are duds. A couple years ago, I had a female panther that out of now where started falling and grabbing her limbs as well. I had been supplementing her just like I was my male who was about a year and a half. I maybe even gave her a little more calcium b/c she was getting closer to a year. I had changed her fluorescent tubes every 6 months and when I took her to the vet, she had no explanation for me. She gave me a calcium supplement and after some time I ended up having to force-feed her and that was awful. She hated it. She persisted to get worse and I ended up deciding that it was time for her to be put out of her misery. One of the hardest things I ever had to do...
Anyways.... after I started thinking about it, It had to have been from the homemade cage I bought off of craigslist. The screen used on it was very dark and I have always wondered if it was blocking her UVB or if the bulb was a dud to begin with. Maybe this will help with you journey on finding out something for your little guy.

KatiLemons said:

I wonder if it was possible that your UVB lights were some of the ones that you hear about people getting that are duds.

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as always, in this day and age i think it behooves all cham owners to purchase a UVB meter! not only have they come way down in price, they will save you money in the long term, particularly the more bulbs/critters you have.

it's bad enough to guess at temperature or humidity; and with those at least our bodies can help differentiate a little. but the only way to tell if that bulb is good, worn out, still kicking....buy a meter.

A UVB meter and a microscope are next on my TO PURCHASE list.