hatcling snakes as feeders

Oops. Meant "Hatchling snakes"

I have read that stomach contents of wild chams can contain remains of hatchling birds and lizards. I produce a lot of colubrid snakes, and often have non-feeders, imperfect animals, or snakes otherwise in need of culling. These usually go to carnivorous snakes, but I am considering trying a few on adult veileds. This seems to be a good source of retinol, but wondering if there could be any downside. They are certainly small enough (4 to 5 grams), my biggest concerns are nutrition and "overdosing" any nutrients.

I personally see no problem with it s you would already be feeding them to other snakes anyways. Your chams would enjoy a treat every once in great while. I'm sure there are high in protein so feed them those too often and gout with occur. but a snake for gravid female or a female who had just laid would be nice. I'm sure there is some calcium and boosters in hatchling snakes. Whatever they got from the york your female will get. indirectly.



Justin

imho I think its wrong to feed off another animal to another... jmo Im not one of those PETA people but i just don't like the thought of feeding off animals to other animals. but if its alright its up to you.
Zac

ChameleonRave said:

imho I think its wrong to feed off another animal to another... jmo Im not one of those PETA people but i just don't like the thought of feeding off animals to other animals. but if its alright its up to you.
Zac

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Well you are feeding crickets off to another animal. Right?

elrojo said:

and often have non-feeders, imperfect animals, or snakes otherwise in need of culling.

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Can you read, chameleonrave

Personally I wouldnt see a problem with it but I would feed them sparingly.

He probably means feeding vertebrate to each other. Idk I dont usually get feelings watching crickets being eaten by lizards/amphibians but i cant really watch a lizard eat a pinkie or another lizard..

id be fine feeding it whatever as long as its not onother chameleon or like any other animal eat one of his own like chanibalism that would be wrong.

I'm not hung up about this morally. Nor would I be opposed to feeding off baby chams should there be some defect, for that matter. My question is based purely on nutrition and I'd prefer the conversation stay that direction.

I think they are a very good alternative for bigger chameleons. Personally I won't feed any live vertebrates to others but from the "scientific" point of view I think it's a good idea. The same with CB hatched geckos or other small lizards. The calcium from the bones is a very valuable nutrient

It's called the food chain. However, I probably won't want to raise any animals that would require eating chicks, rabbits or rats. The latter 3 will end up becoming my pets. I can deal with feeding insects to insectivores though.. I loved getting crix and grubs from my yard to feed my suggies.

My sugar glider joey was rejected and died in the parent's cage. Mother suggie started gnawing on him.. although it would've been great for her to reabsorb the nutrients, I just couldn't let her do it.

elrojo said:

I'm not hung up about this morally. Nor would I be opposed to feeding off baby chams should there be some defect, for that matter. My question is based purely on nutrition and I'd prefer the conversation stay that direction.

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oops sorry I went off topic.

Yes I knew of someone who did the same thing you did, except that he sold off those non feeding baby snakes to unsuspecting customers. This guy is an MD, like he really needed the $

It's just kind of odd to me that they refuse to eat even though their survival absolutely depended on it!

Ellron said:

Well you are feeding crickets off to another animal. Right?

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true... but snakes? I don't mind feeding insects off... they are pesky to me..
Zac

ChameleonRave said:

true... but snakes? I don't mind feeding insects off... they are pesky to me..
Zac

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I think stray cats are pesky. Does that mean I should find a 20 foot long python to feed them to? Great idea!

Syn said:

I think stray cats are pesky. Does that mean I should find a 20 foot long python to feed them to? Great idea!

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Yes I love it! might as well toss a couple little kids bunny rabbits too while your at it.

I bet there is some amazing nutrition to be had in those little snakes. If they can get them in the wild, why not in captivity if the opportunity presents itself?

Sounds like you found a way to kill 2 birds with one stone. (Or kill 1 snake and feed a cham with one stone?)

Back in high school I had an Oustaleti whose favorite food was lizards and ate them with the enthusiasm of most chameleons eating mantis. Actually it is probably one of the best and most natural ways to give chameleons calcium. However if you are going to attempt to feed out vertebrates parasites are a concern and feeding off wild caught lizards or snakes is a gamble. You should probably captive breed and only feed off captive bred animals. Mellers, Oustaleti, Parsons, Veileds and Verrucosus are capable of eating smaller vertebrates. Baby snakes you could if your past the moral dilemma, however it is just not the most popular idea with a bunch of herp lovers.

Try it and let us know, I think there is no problem with it jmo.

I had a baby chameleon that didn't correctly develop its eyes in the egg. Basically, I had several options...1. watch the baby suffer for the next several days till it died. 2. Put it in the freezer and put it to sleep or 3. Feed it to an adult chameleon. I chose to feed it to the Adult chameleon, because it was the most resourcefull choice. BTW, the adult shot the blind chameleon baby right off the plant like an insect and loved it. For those who do not like that I did that, I know it is a sad scenario either way you look at it. In the wild this could easily happen and my Parsonii didn't complain.

I think it would be quite natural for a larger chameleon to just very occassionally eat a small snake. I see no reason not to give it a try, assuming the snakes are small enough,
I would not however offer more than very rarely - chameleons are primarily constructed to be insect eaters, so snake protein isnt really what they are designed to eat on a reguar basis.

The only nutritional information I have on snakes as feeders is very limited
D.M. 28.0
Ash 17.0
Gross Energy 6.51 (primarily from carbs and protein, not fat)

There will always be moral issues regarding feeding one animal to another animal no matter what the species etc.

Either way, I hope all goes well and nothing bad comes of this. It is a learning experience for everyone.

Syn said:

I think stray cats are pesky. Does that mean I should find a 20 foot long python to feed them to? Great idea!

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you know thats not what i meant... lol.. I like all animals, except insects. they are just annoying to me.. and cats to a snake. sad. I miss my old cat D: but i see what you mean with the strays being pesky...