gut-loading vs supplement...

i have a female panther and a female veiled. i've owned the veiled for a few months now and got the panther last weekend.

the veiled must be 8 months old or so, the panther i'm not so sure... 4-6?

i gut-load my crickets & locusts with apples/oranges once a week, and collard greens a couple days, kale a couple days, and shaved carrots once a week, just a good all-round mix. they are gut-loaded 2-3 hours before feeding.

is this sufficient to not need such an intense supplementation schedules?

i feed my veiled every day, 4-5 crickets or locusts, and some silkworms once or twice a week. the occasional mealworm too, gutloaded on apples, potato, etc.

i also dust. i use calcium every day, and i also use 'repton insect dusting supplement' every couple of weeks.

from time to time i notice deposits on my veileds nasal cavities as of the last couple weeks or so. i've cut back on the calcium to every other feed and it's improved.

is it possible that, with such a good variation of gut-load, i don't really need the additional supplementation? perhaps all together it's a little too much?

also, if anyone could tell me their opinion of the 'repton insect dusting supplement' as everyone else seems to use nutrabol.

pics here:

panther...





veiled...



here she is angry!

I dunno bout neone else, but i wouldnt feel comfy not supplementing. I gutload my crix too, but i still supplement on the regular schedule. JMO

I'd still lightly dust the crickets and locust.

MrFiddles said:

i gut-load my crickets & locusts with apples/oranges once a week, and collard greens a couple days, kale a couple days, and shaved carrots once a week, just a good all-round mix. they are gut-loaded 2-3 hours before feeding.

is this sufficient to not need such an intense supplementation schedules?

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In my opinion definitely not. Do you use any dry components for gutloading? That is a very minimal amount of gutloading components, especially if they aren't getting all of those every day. Collard greens are the only thing listed that have significant calcium content, and by themselves that isn't much at all. Kale has a decent calcium ratio but also has a lot of oxalates that are binding up that calcium. Apples and oranges are really only good for hydration, and carrots have some nutritional value for vitamin A and C. Your gutload needs more variety in itself so would not be sufficient enough to limit your supplementation, especially in young, growing chameleons. Growth requires basically as much calcium as you can give them and well-rounded nutrient base.

Sandrachamelon's blogs have a wealth of nutritional suggestions. Here is a prime example of a well-rounded dry gutload:

This is the May2011 recipe:

3 cups alfalfa (protein, vitamins including K)
1 cup powdered kelp (iodine, calcium, magnesium)
1/4 cup air dried, shredded dandelion leaves (calcium, vitamins)
1/4 cup sunflower seeds (B vitamins, folate, potasium, etc)
1/4 cup sesame seed (calcium, iron, copper, magnesium, maganese, selenium)
1/4 cup raw pumpkin and squash seeds (Protein, Vitamin K, Iron, Copper, Magnesium)
1/4 cup dried mixed cranberries and blueberries (sweetness, antioxidants)
1/4 cup of ground (dead and dry) garry oak and maple tree leaves (tanins, fibre)
2 sheets of roasted seaweed (as used for maki sushi)
5 tablespoons of hemp seed (Essential Fatty Acids, essential amino acids, protein, fibre)
5 tablespoons bee pollen
4 tablespoons spirulina
4 tablespoons of brewers yeast (B vitmains including folic acid, chromium, selenium)
4 tablespoons slivered raw almonds (potasium, b vitamins, vitamin E)
2 tablespoons organic dried coconut (yummy)
2 tablespoons millet (fiber, niacin, thiamin, riboflavin, lecithin, iron, magnesium)
2 teaspoons of poppy seeds (calcium)
1 teaspoon of ginger powder (Vitamin E, B6, Iron, Magnesium, Potassium, Selenium, and Manganese)

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Read more of her blog here...

And that's just the dry component...she also adds a wide variety of fresh fruits and veggies. Here are some examples:

Good Wet Gutloading Ingredients: dandelion leaves, collard greens, mustard greens, turnip greens, escarole lettuce, butternut squash, carrots, mango, alfalfa sprouts, oranges, blueberries, raspberries, sweet potato, strawberries, hibiscus leaves and flowers, papaya

Foods to AVOID: Broccoli, spinach, beets, and parsley, have large amounts of oxalic acids which bind calcium absorption. Lettuces and cabbage do not have any significant nutritional value. Also, avoid things like dog food, cat food, and fish flakes which are high in animal proteins which can cause kidney damage. Feeding such things like pinky-mice, fuzzies, and feeder anoles that are extremely high in fat and protein content is harmful to your chameleon's health, bones and organs that can lead to serious illnesses like gout, edema, organ failure and fatality.


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More info here...

The link in my signature has a great chart of nutritional info on commonly available fruits and veggies to use for guidance.

thanks for the reply.

could anyone comment on 'repton insect dusting supplement' though?

Unless you want to spend over $100, I wouldn't suggest using that recipe. That user also suggested I follow that recipe for gutload, personally I find switching up fruits/veggies much more affordable and easier than searching 100 stores for the obscure items.

The white specs on the nose are typically caused by hard tap water, do you use tap water to mist?

I would recommend you gutload up to 12 hours before feeding and along with the fresh fruits and veggies to use a good dry gutload such as Cricket Crack which can be bought from a forums member here. I'll get you his link. Girls need allot of calcium along with good gut load. I would also recommend some liquid calcium. I'm attaching a couple of my blogs for you below. The first is general care of your chameleons and I have a special section for females. The second in about egg laying and the laying bin.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...-keepers-young-veiled-panther-chameleons.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/jannb/345-egg-laying-laying-bin.html#comment824

An excellent place to buy a good dry gutload: https://www.chameleonforums.com/dry-gutload-sale-37717/

AZJ0SH said:

Unless you want to spend over $100, I wouldn't suggest using that recipe. That user also suggested I follow that recipe for gutload, personally I find switching up fruits/veggies much more affordable and easier than searching 100 stores for the obscure items.

The white specs on the nose are typically caused by hard tap water, do you use tap water to mist?

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nope. all bottled water for everything.

jannb said:

I would recommend you gutload up to 12 hours before feeding and along with the fresh fruits and veggies to use a good dry gutload such as Cricket Crack which can be bought from a forums member here. I'll get you his link. Girls need allot of calcium along with good gut load. I would also recommend some liquid calcium. I'm attaching a couple of my blogs for you below. The first is general care of your chameleons and I have a special section for females. The second in about egg laying and the laying bin.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...-keepers-young-veiled-panther-chameleons.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/jannb/345-egg-laying-laying-bin.html#comment824

An excellent place to buy a good dry gutload: https://www.chameleonforums.com/dry-gutload-sale-37717/

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thanks.

AZJ0SH said:

Unless you want to spend over $100, I wouldn't suggest using that recipe.

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the recipie shared cost me only $20 to make FYI

Hello Friddles Your chameleons look very nice.
While supplements are supplementary to good gutloading, they are still necessary - especially the calicum.
White discharge crust coming from the nose is usually salt related, not calicum.

What is the nutritional analysis of the 'repton insect dusting supplement' ?

AZJ0SH said:

Unless you want to spend over $100, I wouldn't suggest using that recipe. That user also suggested I follow that recipe for gutload, personally I find switching up fruits/veggies much more affordable and easier than searching 100 stores for the obscure items.

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"That user" never said you had to use the whole recipe (which does not cost anywhere near $100 actually). I believe what I said was that you could some of those listed and change them up to give your chameleon better nutrition, much like I suggested you do with fruits and veggies, which don't always have a well rounded nutrient base. What is easiest is usually never what is best and I tend to think that good nutrition is worth a little extra time and money on my part since it is paramount for the foundation of good health. Your suggestion is based purely on your own time and money constraints and nothing to do with what the animal may need. If you are looking for ways to save money having a chameleon is not one of them!

There are premade dry gutloads like cricket crack available that incorporate a lot of good ingredients and they are ready to go and pretty cheap for people wanting to offer more nutrition without making their own.

sandrachameleon said:

the recipie shared cost me only $20 to make FYI

Hello Friddles Your chameleons look very nice.
While supplements are supplementary to good gutloading, they are still necessary - especially the calicum.
White discharge crust coming from the nose is usually salt related, not calicum.

What is the nutritional analysis of the 'repton insect dusting supplement' ?

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when i get home (about 5 hours time) from work i'll post a close-up photo of the precise ingredients/nutritional analysis.

thanks for your help.

ferretinmyshoes said:

There are premade dry gutloads like cricket crack available that incorporate a lot of good ingredients and they are ready to go and pretty cheap for people wanting to offer more nutrition without making their own.

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i'm in the uk too, so to get some of that cricket crack i need a member in the uk.

know of any?

ferretinmyshoes said:

"That user" never said you had to use the whole recipe (which does not cost anywhere near $100 actually). I believe what I said was that you could some of those listed and change them up to give your chameleon better nutrition, much like I suggested you do with fruits and veggies, which don't always have a well rounded nutrient base. What is easiest is usually never what is best and I tend to think that good nutrition is worth a little extra time and money on my part since it is paramount for the foundation of good health. Your suggestion is based purely on your own time and money constraints and nothing to do with what the animal may need. If you are looking for ways to save money having a chameleon is not one of them!

There are premade dry gutloads like cricket crack available that incorporate a lot of good ingredients and they are ready to go and pretty cheap for people wanting to offer more nutrition without making their own.

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You're taking gut-loading to the extreme, most members on here rely on fruits/veggies for gutloading and it's more than enough to keep a chameleon healthy. Claiming they need to hunt down hard to find ingredients is just going to cause new members to either be turned off on chameleon keeping, or believe it's required and continue to spread misinformation.

I spent the better part of a day searching for these ingredients, and totaled everything out to $78, sure it would be for a years worth of gutload, but using fresh fruits and veggies works just the same.

In a previous thread you suggested not to use pre-made gutloads because of the lack of nutrients, but now it's ok to use them?

Remind me of one of those people who would feed beef and rice to their dog becuase they believe dry dog food is unhealthy.

AZJ0SH said:

In a previous thread you suggested not to use pre-made gutloads because of the lack of nutrients, but now it's ok to use them?

Remind me of one of those people who would feed beef and rice to their dog becuase they believe dry dog food is unhealthy.

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It is not misinformation!! I don't appreciate how you portray me when I've spent a lot of time trying to help you with multiple issues. I said Flukers dry cricket food was not okay, and I gave you the reasons why. Cricket crack is different because of the better variety of more nutritional ingredients (we've had this discussion before). And again, I'm not saying you MUST use every ingredient listed but nutrition really is important and blowing it off will and does cause health problems. And what evidence do you have to say otherwise? Using a good variety of veggies is important (and it took you a while to start doing even that) but using dry gut load in addition to it is even better. I'm going to offer you the Mercedes plan, if you chose the Ford Focus instead that's up to you but don't preach to people asking for more that they're wasting their time just because you think it's not worth it for you. Quite frankly you don't have anything to back up what you're saying and you've only even had a chameleon for a few months. He is not even an adult yet so you don't even know if you're using is working for him yet. If you have a problem with me feel free to PM instead of implying that I am full of it when all I am trying to do is help. How you chose to use the info offered is completely up to you.

AZJ0SH said:

You're taking gut-loading to the extreme, most members on here rely on fruits/veggies for gutloading and it's more than enough to keep a chameleon healthy.

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Gutloading properly IS quite important, actually. It ought not be downplayed. Yes, vegetables should form the basis of a good gutload. But you DO want to THINK about what veggies to provide, about the nutrients you are providing (or not). One then adds other stuff to round out the nutrients needed.

I cannot imagine how you managed to cost that recipe out at the price you claim. Its well beyond what I've paid to make twice as much. But even if it DID cost that much, it would be worth it to keep a long-lived healthy chameleon, IMHO.

MrFiddles - check the classifieds on this forum, someone might ship it to you. Although I think it might be easier just to make your own gutloads. Also you might look into Repashy Bug Burger. I've not used it myself. Its also relatively new, so not much long term data to support it yet. BUT its more readily available and it sounds like it might be useful. At the least you could use that as a back-up for when you are not using vegetables and such of your own choosing.

here is some info on gutloading you may find useful:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html

Ferret and Sandra are two of the top people on here, I don't think you should be saying anything against them or their recommendations either. Sandra takes way more time than anyone else I know to write blogs that are not just helpful but super informative and thorough, and Ferret knows a lot about reptile health so she's also someone I trust a lot when she gives information.

That said, let's see how much food you eat in a week. More than 4-5 veggies, I would think, right? Do you think you would be very healthy if all you ate were carrots, apples, potatoes, and collard greens? You'd probably be missing a few things. The same idea applies to any pet food. With all your insects, they will always be more "valuable" if they are eating a variety of really healthy food.

You don't have to use all the ingredients if you don't want, but you should either buy a good pre-made gutload or spend a little to make your own batch. It really doesn't take all that much time or money to do it, but the benefits are huge. One of Sandra's dry gutload ingredient suggestions is a high quality cereal like something from Kashi. How much does a box of cereal cost? All of $4 maybe? Mixed with a handful of other good ingredients from the list and for maybe $20 you've made a decent gutload for a couple months. That and a lot of fresh fruits and veggies, and you know that you're not going to get health issues down the road.

Bottom line, what would you rather spend $100 on? Months and months worth of excellent gutload, or a trip to the vet?

as requested, detailed breakdown of repton...

is this a suitable every day, or a suitable monthly for multivits?

Hi - thanks for posting the details.
It looks well rounded, but I would not use this particular product on a daily basis, due to the significant about of vitamin D and vitamin A it contains. You could use it once weekly, and Use a plain phosphourous and vitamin free calcium most other days of the week.

sandrachameleon said:

Hi - thanks for posting the details.
It looks well rounded, but I would not use this particular product on a daily basis, due to the significant about of vitamin D and vitamin A it contains. You could use it once weekly, and Use a plain phosphourous and vitamin free calcium most other days of the week.

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excellent. thanks.

so this would negate the need for a clacium +D3?

just stick to my daily calcium, plus this once a week?

MrFiddles said:

excellent. thanks.
so this would negate the need for a clacium +D3?
just stick to my daily calcium, plus this once a week?

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Yes, as this product has D3 in it, no need for another one. Of course you need to also consider what you are gutloading with and what types of feeder prey you are using, but generally speaking, Plain calcium most days, your repton once a week or so.

Potato is not a great gutloading item BTW.

I never said gutloading wasn't important, I was clearing up the misinformation. No need to get upset about it, but don't try to force others into following unnecessary gutloading techniques. Alternating fruits and veggies along with some dry food such as Cricket Crack is more than enough.