Feeling very discouraged and down

Things are not going well with my boys and I feel so discouraged. I have spent so much time and money trying to make srue everything is perfect for them and yet here we are. I guess all the feeder breeding, gut loading, fancy lights, outdoor time, misting etc just isnt enough. Here are their status updates:

George - Male Panther, 1 year and 8 months old, we have had him since he was 4 months. Developed gular edema in the summer, which has not gotten any better and even seems worse. Noticed a decrease in appetite late November which progressed in to week long stents of not eating followed by maybe 1 food item then another week without eating. Took him to the vet in January fecal normal, blood work only finding was slightly elevated white count (13,000). Vet spoke with other reptile vets for advice and we decided to try a round of antibiotics (enrofloxacin oral for 10 days). We are 5 days in to treatment, so far no change, hoping for the best.

Monty - Male Panther, 3.5 years old, we have had him for 3 months. Upon being dropped off we felt he had an issue with his right eye and possible gout. He has been holding his right eye shut and dangles his legs most of the time. He had been eating and drinking just fine for the entire time in our care. Took him to the vet last week, fecal positive for giardia, and blood work showed elevated white count and elevated uric acid. He is on eye drops (ciprofloxacin) for his right eye. Today he got a dose of metronidazole for his giardia and I have noticed him sleeping off and on today.

Rex - Male Jackson, about 2.5 years old, we have had him 2 years. His only issue has been a cut in his mouth, likely from a snail shell. Has taken weeks to heal as it opens sometimes when he eats. Treated with betadine.

Spike - Male Bearded dragon 4.5 years old we have had him for 10 months. He came to us with eye infections in both eyes due to sand substrate, treated with terramycin also had coccidia and pinworms which were treated with panacur. Noticed a decrease in appetite in October, he has lost 35 grams and still is not eating much. Tried force feeding some food from the vet which he did not enjoy and his mouth bled slightly even with the slight force to open it. He has not been to the vet recently and has not had repeat labs yet.

I have been so down and stressed, just needed to vent.

Thanks

Im sorry sounds like a bit of bad luck for sure

You mentioned treating spike for his other problems- are you sure his problem now isn't just a desire to hibernate? My dragons go down in October usually...

fluxlizard said:

You mentioned treating spike for his other problems- are you sure his problem now isn't just a desire to hibernate? My dragons go down in October usually...

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I thought it might be brumation, but from what I have read they usually sleep and dont lose weight during that time. He hasn't been sleeping during the day and has lost quite a bit of weight.

Do you lower their basking temp during that time? I have zero experience with dragons and only took him in because his owner couldn't take care of him anymore. I have kept his basking temp between 90 and 95 all winter.

That is a heartbreaker, I know. I have felt the same way every time I have gone through a health issue. You spend so much time and energy making sure they have the very best you feel like a failure when something happens. I keep a pretty clean cham room but yours in that feeder thread put me to shame! Whatever happens know you give your guys the very best of care.

You are such a fantastic Mom to all of your critters - you dedicate your time, your money, your love, and your care to them. I'm sorry that you're feeling down in the dumps, and I really hope things turn around for all of your guys, but it's not for lack of trying! Hang in there, I'm sure all that bad luck will turn around soon.

I'm sorry Rachelle, that just sucks. I hope things start to turn around for you and the little ones. I know how much you care for them and love them.

And tonight it just gets worse. George has been a dark color since starting his meds. Tonight he is dark and not even in his PJs.....That worries me.

And.......found nematodes in my whites tree frog lagoon today. One of them had a skin infection a few months ago and now I find nematodes! While it is fun to look at under the microscope, it is concerning that they are infected........maybe I should have stuck with just our two dogs. This is getting overwhelming.

I know just how you feel because I've been through it all with my guys. Sometimes no matter what you do things still happen. At one point I too though about not getting anymore chameleons but they bring me so much pleasure that I think it does out weight the pain. I will be praying for your guys and for you. Hang in there and be tough for them because they need you.

Also Panacur doesn't work on coccidia.

I thought it might be brumation, but from what I have read they usually sleep and dont lose weight during that time. He hasn't been sleeping during the day and has lost quite a bit of weight.

Do you lower their basking temp during that time? I have zero experience with dragons and only took him in because his owner couldn't take care of him anymore. I have kept his basking temp between 90 and 95 all winter.
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I'm a little wordy tonight- below may be more than you want to know, but give it a browse anyway. To me it seems like if your lizard has been wormed, etc, based on the time of the year that he began loosing weight he may just need a bit of brumation. This is my thought- I can't see your lizard but I have been keeping many many bearded dragons over many generations since 1994. Before the fire last year I had 64 cages with 1.2 adults per cage. I've taken groups and done lots of things with them to try and learn more in different ways- one thing that interested me a lot was brumation- how I could induce it if I wanted, how long the dragons could go without loosing weight, etc. So I've taken groups and tried many different things over the years.

My thoughts on your dragon-

He may or may not actively try and sleep, depends on the dragon. Some will just kind of look a bit miserable- awake with the lights but not really peppy. My son's dragons looked like that this year- On new years day I realized that with everything going on I had forgotten to suggest he hibernate them, and their living arrangement had changed this year so they weren't getting as much cool (previously they lived in a bay window- it got cool there winter nights and they would start to hide during the days so my son would take them out and put them on the cool hard wood floor under the TV stand until they became active and came out again every spring- this year they are in a big tank).

I've done brumation lots of different ways. The easiest is simply to turn off the lights and leave the cage at room temperature. Keep water in there all throughout in case he wakes up and decides he's thirsty. At room temperature his digestion will still function but will slow down, so there is not a risk of food rotting in his stomach. Depending on your room temperature it may be enough- upper 60s most of the time for example with some days rising into the 70s. Ambient room lighting is what we use here.

After trying different things with lowering wattages of lights and shortening and lengthening day lengths, I came to the conclusion many years ago that simply turning the lights off for the duration and back on again at the conclusion works just as well if not better and is much easier.

If you just want to try 6-8 weeks, this is an OK way for brumation. If you want to go longer, Or if he just seems like he's not going down (sitting inactive and not moving but not sleeping either- just staring around and not sleeping much- zombie state- then I recommend going cooler after a few weeks. Although that is still a brumation state- deeper slows the metabolism further and is more restful and lessens the chance of weight loss. Those few weeks before going even cooler give him a chance to clear his gut first if he needs to. If he is sleeping soundly most of the day- you may not want to go cooler. But if he isn't you can go cooler.

At this point put the enclosure on the floor itself or use a large plastic storage tub on a cool floor- a wood floor, basement floor, etc where the lizard can go lower into the 50s and 60s. For mine, if the room temp is kind of warm but the floor is cool, I'll toss a little hay in there for them to burrow into so they can avoid the warm. Pine needles or dry leaves would be fine too. No food, only a water bowl which always has water so they can wake up and drink when they want and go back down again. If the temp is mostly in the 50s, they can go many months. I've taken large groups all the way from the first of October until mid May. They sleep and don't loose weight when conditions are cool enough. Again though- they need to be able to dig into some loose substrate like the hay so they can avoid heat and they need to have a water dish at all times- if they dehydrate they will definitely loose weight and it is very bad for them.

Sometimes even if it isn't so cool- as long as they can keep relatively cool (probably anywhere in the 60s) they can go a long time without loosing weight if they want. Some bits of brumation I still don't understand even after trying groups lots of different ways over the years. I had 2 groups before that slept most of a year each (not at the same time). Don't know what triggered brumation in the first place as it occurred in the summer, and I was unable to get them to awaken in late winter by warming them back up. I would even dig the lizards out from where they were sleeping every day and put them on their basking area- within a few minutes they would be gone back to their sleeping places. Both groups finally just came back around on their own after nearly a year! Don't know why they started or continued when I warmed things back up- they were next to cages with lizards that had seemingly the same conditions and brumation was not triggered for those cages, and within the cage all the members of each group went into brumation and stayed there and then all came out again at the same time- no clue why the difference and why all in the same cage.

But that is not normal. Normally I either take control of when I want them to go down indoors or I let nature do it by leaving them outdoors a bit longer.

8 weeks should be enough to get your lizard back to his peppy self. If he is a male - you may find he is even more peppy than before hibernation. A few weeks after he comes up he will be feeling his oats and be pretty animated with bobbing and the like.

I'm sorry you are having bad luck right now with your lizards.

Edit- forgot to add- some individuals never seem to use the water bowl even when they are down all winter. Leave water in there anyway, just in case. Some absolutely need it.

Edit edit- Just FYI for anyone reading this with other lizards that brumate- the tub on a cool concrete floor works really well even in a warm room. Works great for most brumating lizards too- shinisaurus, australian water dragons, leopard geckos, collard lizards, lacertas, etc.

I can see how you'd feel a bit discouraged with all that at once.

Sounds like Rex will get better soon. And seems like Monty came with troubles, and you are doing your best to correct things for him. You should feel good about that. Remember to provide lots for water for George.

Hang in there.

I have nothing to add. But I know you are doing everything that can be done for your animals.It may be slow but it will get better. Tell Rex I still love him.

Hang in there lady, I know just how you feel - only X 11 !! I am only happy with 5 of my 11 right now- I wont even go into it- it would take forever! the only ones I am happy with are my communal living pod of 5 female jax - they all live in the big f/r - I am ready to put everyone in there- lol - but I too have spent alot of $ on feeders, vet, lights, cages.... you know how it is, but take a breath, the worry we all share , even when they are not our personal chams, can ware you out - and I know sometimes I feel "mean" to my chams treating them, but I know its for the good - Max has had eating and mouth issues from that spider bite now for MOS ! I get one thing fixed, he starts another, I feel so bad forcing his mouth open, but one look into his eyes, and we keep hanging in there - it will get better, stay strong, and as always, we are all here for you - love your little guys and all the cute pics stay strong, you are a great Mommy to them

I feel your frustration. It seems to be a struggle to keep all your animals healthy.

If i may offer suggestions.
1. Your panthers edema. Something i have learned to be completely true and whether or not she completely knew she was providing information beyond just good choices is sandrchameleons blogs on a good diet. The method of intake amount, variety and a varied never the same gut load ingredients is key. Same things over and over along with over feeding can trigger edema. It will just be a battle at the point to keep it at bay.

2. Your dragon. It is possible he is in brumation. Not all sleep during this time. If he is still somewhat active he will probably decrease in weight as his appetite will not be there. Depending where you are located. Many dragons will be triggered around September/October and it usually last till april/may. There is no exact time limit and what i just posted is "typical". I would recommend turning your lights off as long as your rooms temps are atleast 60's-70's degrees. During this time. I would offer water once a week. Doing it one of two ways.
A. You can take a needle less syringe with water and place a drop of water on the tip of the nose (Place a dry wash rag under the head to catch the excess water drips). Do this until they drink and repeat until they are done.
B. If the dragon wakes when you touch it. Soak in warm water up to the arm pits for 10-15 minutes. Dip a finger in the water and put a few drops on the tip of the nose to spark drinking.

Thank you for all of your responses. Some very helpful and supportive information. I am so thankful for all of the wonderful people on this forum. It really helps get though the tough times and to enjoy the good times.

For George: After his antibiotcs are done, I think I am going to just leave him alone. He isnt himself with the treatment, he is looking poor in fact. I will continue to feed him a varied diet and just hope that the edema isn't something serious that we missed. He eats a wide variety of insects and I do change up my gutload. I try to rotate the greens, veggies and fruit and vary the dry recipe (Sandra's Recipe).
Here he is at the vet. Now, after starting the meds he is a dark color and doesn't look very good.


For Spike: I want to follow the suggestions of turning off his lights, but I feel bad doing that as he spends his entire day under his basking light. I tried turning it off today and he turned dark. I ended up turning it back on for him. I will keep and eye on him and keep him hydrated. He will eat a food item every few days. I do bathe him as he doesnt seem to drink from a water dish and he refuses to eat any veggies or fruits. His previous owner said he never did eat fruits and veggies.


Monty: Not sure what will happen. He goes in for x rays on the 20th to see if his uric acid elevation really is gout as I suspect it is, due to him always hanging his legs. He still needs 2 more doses of his parasite meds, hopefully he does ok. The first dose seemed to bother him and he slept half the day.
Monty at the vet


Frogs: Took their entire tank apart and cleaned everything. Hopefully they are clean and I can manage whatever caused the 4 nematodes I found in their water bowl. I change the water everyday and clean the entire tank every 2 weeks. Not sure what is going on with them.


Rex is going great. He is eating, drinking and being his normal happy self.
Rex this morning

Some encouraging news. Monty is keeping his eye open more now that he has been getting the eye drops for a few days, and he ate today so im happy. He goes for x rays on the 20th to confirm whether he has gout.

George is doing a bit better and is letting me give his antibiotics without a fight now. Today he even ate. Very good sign.

I took the advice given here and turned Spike's basking light off. Shortly after I turned it off, he went in to his cave at the other side of the tank and went to sleep. I guess he needed a little push to help with his brumation. Thank you.

I am feeling more at peace today, thank you all for your support and advice.