Diving into the world of the Chameleons!

Hey Everyone,
It's my first post here and I'm excited to get involved. I have been keeping snakes for many years, and though I have been fascinated by Chams for a long time, I have been wise enough to wait until I was more experienced to get one, but I can't wait any longer !! So I have been reading lots about them recently to make sure I am prepared. From what I read I decided I should either start with a Veiled or a Panther. So I got set on a Panther and started researching them more and then I went and looked at Kammerflage and Ohh... $300 ! I completely believe that a Panther would be worth it if I had more experience, but putting $300, plus the tank with misters and plants and everything else, makes me nervous with my first ever Cham. I've heard some people say that though Veileds tend to be hardier than Panthers, but they are also more easily stressed and therefore less receptive to handling. Is this true? If I got it young and put lots of time into it, would it become "nicer"? Are there any other "starter" Chams that I should look at? Most of what I would look for would be a general good personality, though I know that it is very individualized. I am also aware that Chams are generally not to big on being held, but I just don't want a mean one that wants to eat my face every time it sees me .
Beyond the Cham itself is the most important thing, caring for it. Just to review my understanding, I plan on setting up a 24Lx12Wx24T screen cage with lots of good plants and sticks to climb around on, UVB bulb and heat bulb for basking, and a misting system. What percent humidity should it be in the cage? What am I missing? I am very excited to get started, but I am pacing myself so that I don't rush into this. Any advise or comments are appreciated.

-Bullsnake

forgot to ask...

How are Carpet Chameleons? I love their colors and small size, but I know nothing about them. Thanks again.

-Bullsnake

Yes Veileds are more hardy mainly because they can withstand more extreme temps and lower humidity. Many times Veileds are the safer starter chameleon, but if you are willing to read and put forth the effort, you can start with a Panther. Basically a Veiled prefers a basking area a little warmer (around 95F to 98F) whereas a Panther prefers it to be about 90F to 95F. Also the humidity, Veileds can be find around 35% or 40% whereas a panther really needs it around 55% or 60% (there can be spikes with either chameleon). One thing you were forgetting is the supplementation. It really depends on age but in general they both need to get Calcium without D3 often and Calcium with D3 seldom. Also you need to sup. with multivit. once a month. I would say don't be frightened to start with a Panther, just get it from a reputable breeder.

-chris

Thanks

Thanks for the help Chris. Again, I am in no hurry and want to get the home generally set up and running so I can learn to adjust it and make sure it is stable before I decide what Cham I want. But all the info I can get helps! Thanks again.

-Bullsnake

I have a male & female veiled. Both approx 6 months old. My male is friendlier than the female. Whenever I'd mist him, he'd come right near the nozzle of my sprayer to get more water & then he'd try to escape from his enclosure by slowly going towards the door.. When I handle him, he does not hiss, bite or show any stress coloration.

The female on the other hand will hiss & try to bite me whenever she sees my hand anywhere near her. She also hides when I try to mist her. I'm ASSUMING she's less friendly because when I bought her from a bad pet store, some of her tail was missing, she was at the bottom of the 10 gallon tank and she was looking up at this other big chameleon who was perched at the top of the highest branch. It was bad and I thinks she remembers and she was traumatized. I didn't think she would make it (i know.. i know.. i should not have bought her)

Personally, unless you have a lot of money I would start with a veiled. They are cheaper & hardier and you can allocate more of the money into housing it properly - You'll end up needing a bigger cage in a few months. They grow pretty fast in my opinion. Plus you'll have money for vet bills (just in case).

Once you get the hang of it, you can always sell it if you choose to and get another cham.

It really depends on how much you want to spend on it because veileds and panthers requirements are not that different although I've heard panthers are friendlier.

But hey, my male veiled is really *nice*

I'm like you I always wanted a cham but decided to wait till I had expirance with other herps I've been keeping herps for about 10 years before I finaly got my panther, Personally I feel if your going to go through everything thats needed for the animal and are sure you can meet the needs of it I would say it would be better to get what you really want even if it does run a bit more you'll be happier in the long run I think. As for the cage and supplimentation lighting ect. theres a ton of information you can find out on here and other sites and my breeder told me the PANTHER CHAMELEON, byGary W Ferguson,James B Mur phy,Jean-Baptiste Ramanamanjato and Achille P Raselimanana is a good book to read. But I've had my cham for a year now and honestly I don't think it's very hard keeping the lil guy healthy. But in sort which ever you go with make sure you study the care for that specifc species and don't decide on a cage size because every species has different needs and you will have to have atleast two cages because you can't put a baby in a adult cage. heres a chart I got from screameleons to base cage choices off of I personally went from small to large cages and skipped the middle,
3 months
22 gallon
12”x18”x20”

6 months
38 gallon+
18”x18”x36”+

1 year
100 gallon+
24”x24”x48 +

I resently went through the same process. I got a veiled first to make sure I could keep it and moved on to a panther after about a month. I got my veiled from a local breeder who gave him for free if you bought a cage setup..which was kinda nice.

As far as differences in behavior it really all depends on the cham you end up with they all have thier own behaviors.

My veiled is pretty laid back. The other I even think he wanted to be held.....by my girlfriend !!! I opened the door to do some poop scoopin and Larry Jr. crawled onto the door and perched himself on top of the door. My girlfriend was close by and I asked her to put her hand near him to see if he would reach out and he did !! He turned a bright green and his yellow bands lit up....and at a fairly quick pace he head right up her arm with his eyes set on her head lol !!! Not sure why he wanted up there but it was pretty cool.

My panther is still fairly new and still seems a little uneasy so I dont bother him at all. when I got him in the mail...my poor girlfriend had to open the box and he was a pissy little firecracker when she opended the bag. Since then I havent seen him "pissy" though.

Thanks so much.

Thank you all so much for your help. I think I'm leaning towards the Veiled as a first Cham because of their "durability" and they are also readily available locally so I wouldn't have to get it shipped. I have two last questions. In the smaller cage for the baby, how do you create the heat differential between basking and cooler area without making the whole thing to hot because of the small space? What should the hot/cool temperature be for a Veiled? My final question so far is why do you need to have a smaller cage for a baby. I've heard that it needs to be small to help the young find food, but the wild is a VERY big cage, and they seem to survive there. I'm sure there is a good reason, I would just like to know before I make the investment. I'm sure I'll have more questions later, but this is what I can think of for now. Thanks Again.

-Bullsnake

Veileds win! lol.. j/k

What age are you looking to get?

I keep the basking area for baby veileds in the low to mid 80'sF. There bodies can heat up and dehydrate easier than the adults can so more moderate temperatures will help with this. I also don't like to grow them rapidly.

Appropriate basking temperatures help with proper digestion...so that plays a part in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB (either from a tube/linear UVB light or direct sunlight...neither of which should pass through glass or plastic...allows the chameleon to produce D3 which allows it to use the calcium in its system.

Most feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous, so its important to dust the insects before you feed them to your chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder.

To ensure that the chameleon gets its vitamins, I dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that has a beta carotene source of vitamin A. There is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert beta carotene to vitamin A...so some people give a little preformed vitamin A once in a while. Be careful with the preformed...unlike the beta carotene (which does not build up in the system) preformed vitamin A can build up in the system. Excess preformed vitamin A can prevent the D3 from doing its job and lead to MBD.

If your chameleon only gets UVB from lights then it is usually recommended that you dust with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder a couple of times a month to ensure that the chameleon gets enough D3. D3 from supplements also builds up in the system, so don't overdo it.

Gutloading and feeding your insects well is important too.

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are all players in bone health and need to be in balance. When trying to attain a balance you need to look at the supplements, the food you feed to your insects and what you feed to your chameleon.

Its important to provide water for your chameleon daily as well.

If you get a female, you will have to deal with reproduction...female veileds (and even panthers) can lay eggs without being mated and they need a place in their cages to dig to show you when they need to lay eggs. Failure to provide a place can/will lead to eggbinding.

Hope this helps!

I would reccommend starting with a veiled. I bought my first cham, a female veiled, about 6 months ago. She has been healthy since. Indeed veileds are hardier than panthers, they can tolerate a mistake for a little bit until it gets fixed, while if you make the same mistake with a panther it could be deadly. Yes, panthers are friendlier, but my female is almost as nice and tame as my bearded dragon! It really depends on each cham's personality. The only real differences are what was stated in the other posts, that panthers need higher humidity and less temperature than veileds. Just remember, do lots of research before buying a cham

Wow...

You guys have been a great help! Thank you so much ! I have learned a lot from this forum. It's going to be a little while before I can get a Cham, but that will be a good thing so I can really prepare myself. I'm going to post on the housing/equipment section with some questions about building it's home. I will probably pick a the youngest healthy male Veiled I can find when I get to that point. Please continue to post advise or anything that will be helpful for me on this journey. I'll keep you all updated on my progress and post any more questions I can think of.

-Bullsnake

did i read a tank?

im not sure if i read that right but i thought he/she said it was going to be in a tank? like a fish tank?

Oops...

If I said that I didn't mean to. I am going to buy a screen cage, don't worry.

-Bullsnake

On my website I created a shopping cart from LLLReptile.com (greatest prices on supplies) that has just about everything you need to get started. It might help the wallet to order a few things at a time and they have great shipping also.

http://www.julirschameleons.com/chameleonshoppinglist.htm

nice list, i just ordered about the same list with a few additions, i spent about $230. this being my 4th complete chameleon setup, ive found that to have everything needed including buying the chameleon(veiled) your going to spend between 300-400 dollars total for the complete setup.

Not a cheap hobby -eh?
There are shortcuts! One of the more expensive buys would be flourescent fixtures! I buy Walmart undercabinet fixtures and remove the lenses. They don't look as fancy but we are talking $7 as opposed to $30! Trust me when you have a lot of cages to light you appreciate that savings when you have to order UVB bulbs every 6-9 months! I also buy used cages when I can find them. Watch those LLL specials and sales-that helps too! And always ask about quantity discounts. Crickets get cheaper the more you buy and they can get even cheaper if you ask about the quantity discounts!

It is a little less expensive to start with a veiled and they can be kinda nice when they know you are the food king. Both my male veileds are awesome. Both come to me readily, drink from a dripper on my hand, and 1 even sleeps on my hand. He did that all night about 10 times so far. My husband doesn't even mind that i sleep with another guy. lol. They are actually friendlier than any of my panthers. What i would recommend though is whatever you start with, start with a male. That way you don't have to worry about egg laying issues. Continue to do your research and good luck with your new hoppy.

Debby