D3 Supplementation

We've recently changed our supplementation schedule for our chameleons and have begun alternating calcium w/o D3 and reptivite with D3 3 times a week respectively. This supplementation schedule came out of a discussion with a reputable breeder.

After doing some research on here, I came across a thread explaining that panther chameleons are very good at regulating their internal D3 levels. They will seek out more/less UV for D3 production depending on their dietary intake.

I'll get to why I'm bringing this up.

Since changing our supplementation schedule, we've noticed our male has been going to his sleeping spot a bit earlier and actually falling asleep a little while before the lights go off. I know it's normal for them to seek out their sleeping spot up to an hour or so before lights out. The season is also changing and we've had some pretty dreary weather lately in Toronto, so it has been darker than usual throughout the day.

I guess what I'm wondering is if he is retreating to his sleeping spot a bit earlier due to him not needing as much UV because of the supplementation?Our female doesn't seem to be exhibiting the same behavior.

He is still very active throughout the day and we have no concerns as to his health.

I apologize for not filling out the help form and will do so if it is necessary. I am posting this as more of a topic of discussion than anything.

Here is a link to the thread I mentioned which also cites the article the information came from.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/chameleons-regulate-uv-exposure-response-dietary-vitamin-d3-23548/

Any opinions on this would be great.

I'm in a hurry, so I'll read the article and edit my opinion if I have to in a bit! But for now, this is what I think on the subject:

I know that chameleons don't bask for a full 12 hours every day. Which is why I don't have my UV on more than about 8 hours, and even then, they are hardly ever under it. They bask for a little while and spend the day wandering around their free ranges. However, in a cage they don't have much choice of being under a light or not. I don't supplement very much, relying much more heavily on rich gutloads and insect variety.

It's also been shown that chameleons can reap the benefits of UV for days or weeks after they've been exposed to sunlight or a good bulb for a good bit (I'd provide more exact details, but I'd have to refind this vet journal), without needing to bask under one again. So it leads me to think that they don't need a huge intake of D3. Going from twice a month to 12 times a month is a bit of overkill, don't you think, even if they can regulate how much they use?

I'm not a vet by any means, but since there seem to be a lot of issues surrounding over supplementation and the dangers of D3 excess, I would rather not go to those dosages. Seems to me as if there's a difference between providing enough D3 to not need to bask for it, and providing an excess of it.

I should have included the reasoning for that supplementation schedule in my original post. The idea was that the chameleon would have a small but steady supply of each ingredient maintained at all times instead of having these things introduced twice a month.

I'll also mention that we dust VERY lightly, and only a couple feeders out of each feeding. We also gutload very well and offer a variety regularly.

I do understand the concern of over-supplementation and have tried to find information to shed some light specifically on the over-supplementation or toxicity of D3. However, I haven't really had much luck. Any information provided would be appreciated.

I switched too. however, can I ask one thing?

I'm from toronto as well. Does your cham have a view of natural light? (ie a window in it's view range). Or is it in an enclosed room where the over head lights dictate day/night

tdotcham said:

I switched too. however, can I ask one thing?

I'm from toronto as well. Does your cham have a view of natural light? (ie a window in it's view range). Or is it in an enclosed room where the over head lights dictate day/night

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I assume you were involved in the same discussion lol

Yes they do. We have them both in the living/dining room area where there's a large window. He probably sees more natural light than she does though. That's why I thought it could've been due to the lack of sunlight during the day. They're kind of accustomed to it being brighter overall.

Are you saying that your chameleon is getting UVB through the window? To my knowledge, uva rays, the short rays, can penetrate glass but UVB rays, the ones that can help with d3 that reptiles use, do not penetrate glass or most plastics. Someone correct me if I am wrong on this.

carol5208 said:

Are you saying that your chameleon is getting UVB through the window? To my knowledge, uva rays, the short rays, can penetrate glass but UVB rays, the ones that can help with d3 that reptiles use, do not penetrate glass or most plastics. Someone correct me if I am wrong on this.

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No. We have a 5.0 UV tube light as well as a basking light set-up, and you are correct. Glass and plastic do not let UVB through.

ok, just checking! I have seen people that think by putting a chameleon or other reptile in the window it is getting it's daily UVB!!!

carol5208 said:

ok, just checking! I have seen people that think by putting a chameleon or other reptile in the window it is getting it's daily UVB!!!

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Yeah I know. If you're uneducated about it though it's an easy mistake to make, I'm sure.

I don't think I've stopped researching/learning since I first decided to get a chameleon lol. It's a very consuming hobby.

For those who don't know, Reptivite contains pre-formed vitamin a, as where other supplement formulas contain beta carotene. in a chameleons diet there must be a proper balance of d3 & vitamin a. it isnt proven if chameleons can in fact convert beta carotene into vitamin a & the same argument stands for feeders. vitamin a deficiency is something that is often overlooked with chams.

This supplement schedule is meant to be studied. Learning the symptoms of over and under-supplementing vitamin d3 and vitamin A are paramount in using this supplement schedule. Amounts can easily be tweaked if necessary, whereas supplementing d3 once or twice a month alternated with a multi-vitamin is tougher to pinpoint a problem if it arises.

I use this schedule following the lead of a top Canadian breeder. I trust in his knowledge and experience with keeping and breeding exceptional chameleons.

I believe this was a hot topic at the last Canadian breeders expo...

exactly why i started utilizing it. I also contacted the chameleon company that has done a great amount of experience in breeding chameleons. he too suggested that the supplement regimen would be good. He also stated the levels of D3 in the reptivite were minimal and that it would be nearly impossible for the cham to get an overdose.

my reason for asking about the window view is because they are adjusting to the light outside rather than the light overhead. It is getting darker earlier now that it is fall and it is pretty much dark at 7-730 pm. hence why you would notice your chameleon going to bed earlier. mine is doing the same as the room he is kept in has a window that spans about 15ft and takes up half the wall.

Re: over-supplementation or toxicity of D3...
Here are some sites that might help...as well as some information on calcium and vitamin A....
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2007_V528.pdf

thanks kinyonga. i was hoping youd chime in. i was actually going to pm you about this.

tdotcham said:

exactly why i started utilizing it. I also contacted the chameleon company that has done a great amount of experience in breeding chameleons. he too suggested that the supplement regimen would be good. He also stated the levels of D3 in the reptivite were minimal and that it would be nearly impossible for the cham to get an overdose.

my reason for asking about the window view is because they are adjusting to the light outside rather than the light overhead. It is getting darker earlier now that it is fall and it is pretty much dark at 7-730 pm. hence why you would notice your chameleon going to bed earlier. mine is doing the same as the room he is kept in has a window that spans about 15ft and takes up half the wall.

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good point. i was wondering if it was something simple as that. the cham room is lit by quite a bit of sunlight.

Its normal for them to start sleeping a bit earlier as Winter approaches.

Let's all remember that the BRAND of calicum with D3 makes a HUGE difference. Also, every situation is likely somewhat different.

I dust with D3 calcium VERY lightly, only one or two feeders, only twice a month. I use a vitamin powder (beta carotene, no preformed A) up to twice a month as well. This has worked very well for my situation for over a decade.

I may use different feeders than you, I may gutload better or differently than you, I may have different lighting than you, I may use different brands of supplements than you, etc

Do not rely on one persons opinion, no matter how "well respected" they may be. Do research, think about what you learn in the context of your particular situation (what feeders you use, how you gutload, etc).

If you want a bunch more links to related info, check out the lower half of this blog entry:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html

thanks sandra. i read your blog. very informative. you are absolutely right in the fact that you cannot take one persons opinion to the bank without doing your own reasearch, knowing positive & adverse effects of whatever you introduce into your chams diet. lol, im reading a lot & scientific terms are making more & more sense as the days pass. your input & point of view is alwas respected & appreciated.

Regarding the photo period that your chameleon perceives... I expect that in Maddy , ( being close to the equator) , a cham would have a very steady day/ night cycle. Up here , the light through a window would possibly alter the day/ night cycle of your cham.

Regarding Vitamin A. I have based my belief, that a cham can not convert beta carotene to vit A from work and observations experienced by Jim Flaherty, Connie Dorval, round table paper by Dr. Ferguson and my own experience.

Why do some keepers have success without knowingly providing Vit A? Quite possibly they are gutloading with some items containing vit A or they are gutloading with beta carotene ( carrots) and the bugs are able to make the conversion.

Sandra: What do you specifically gutload with . I know you previously mentioned Spirulina. According to the round table paper done years ago , there is a statement that spirullina does contain pre form vit A.

I don't use spirulina...only greens and veggies for my crickets and superworms, etc. I don't use anything else that would have it in either for other insects...but I have no control over what the insects are raised on before I get them. (I don't breed my own for the chameleons.)

ChromaChameleons said:

Sandra: What do you specifically gutload with . I know you previously mentioned Spirulina. According to the round table paper done years ago , there is a statement that spirullina does contain pre form vit A.

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I personally think that one (or more) of the variety of bugs I use must do whatever conversion is needed.

From what I read on this forum, Many people dont gutload well or use as many feeders as I do. So my results may not be typical. I do know others that dont knowingly use preformed A either, without troubles.

I've listed my gutload ingredients before, specifically asking if anyone could find a source of A. No one could. I'll PM the current list to you, see what you think.

I do periodically use spirulina, and Ive been given reliable information that this alge does not contain pre-formed vitamin A. True vitamin A is found in the pre-formed state only in animal sources. All reliable websites on nutrition info (for example, the USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference) indicate no pre-formed A in spirulina. What Spirulina does contain is the yellow/orange pigments cryptoxanthine and beta-carotene from which vitamin A can be made, at least in some animals.

Either way, its not doing any harm, that's for sure. And if spirulina did have preformed A, given how little I use, it would be amounts incredibly small that make it to my chameleons, such as to suggest very little, if any, preformed A is needed.
I would encourage anyone who can add spirulina to their gutload do so! Its packed full of goodness.

In the early days, a long time ago, well before any of my current chameleons, I did also give fish flake food (which does definately contain A) to my terrestrial isopods on occassion. This would have translated into at least some small amount getting into the 2 animals I had at that time. Isopods were and are a very minor part of my prey selection, and they are small, and I used fish food infrequently. So again, it suggests to me (not scientific) that very little, if any, preformed A is needed.

I also use a few wild caught feeders during the summer (moths, grasshoppers) and they may bring something extra to the table

And although Ive had perfectly good success with my A-free method, I do advise those who buy chameleons from me to use a little preformed A now and then, cautiously. Such as by giving avian pellet food or a boiled egg to their roaches a couple times a year. Again, its not a great amount, but I think a little is probably better than none, for most people. I do believe that in the wild, chameleons would occassionally eat a small lizard or similar, and that would perhaps provide any preformed A they need. I have even considered adding pre-formed A to my roach gutload twice a year. But I've been fearful to "fix" something that aint broke!

Sandra , thanks for the info . I would have to agree that tweaking something that is working for you may not be prudent.