Baby isn't eating

Chameleon Info:



Our Tiny Dinosaur:
This is Turbo the veiled chameleon. He can’t be more than 3 months old, and we are rolling with the assumption that he’s a boy. He’s about 5 inches long. My boyfriend and I bought him about six weeks ago, and he’s our first chameleon.

Handling
I handle him every other day, usually if I’m doing something where I’ll be quiet and still, like reading.

Feeding
For the first while we fed him pet store crickets, but now we feed him week-old crickets that we gut-load with lettuce and spinach. He won't eat most days, but if he does he only eats 1 or 2 crickets.

Supplements
We dust the crickets with ReptiVite with D3, and we put an electrolyte solution in their water source. Turbo has been eating sporadically (every few days), so we dust the crickets every time in hopes he’ll eat.

Watering

• Hand-mist with a combination of distilled water and electrolyte solution
• Automatic mister, also filled with distilled water.
• We have a dripper, but Turbo isn’t interested in it.

We are still tampering with the mister. We had it spraying once an hour for 10 seconds, and now we’ve dropped it to three times a day for 20 seconds. I’ve seen Turbo lick droplets from the leaves in the past, but not for a couple weeks now.

Fecal Description
The droppings are dark brown with near-white streaks. They’re not too runny, overly dry, or chunky. I think he goes every few days. He’s never been tested for any parasites.

History
We’re a little lacking. He’s a pet store chameleon.

Cage Info:
Cage Type

• It’s a glass enclosure with front-opening doors and a screen top.
• 18”x18”x24”
• Doors are usually open a little for extra ventilation.

Lighting
Lights are on from 7:30am-8pm. No night lights.

• 26W coil UVB bulb; he prefers this to a 13W.
• 60W basking bulb
• 50W infrared heat lamp

Temperature

• Low: 75F
• Upper: 85F
• Basking spot: 95F.
• Nighttime: 65-70F.

We have three thermometers in his cage and another in the house.

Humidity

• Stays around 50-60% for the most part.
• Heated automatic mister.
• There is a hygrometer in the tank.

Plants
All plants are plastic and show no signs of being chewed or tampered with.

Placement

• Located in the living room.
• 2 feet off the ground.
• No other pets (other than a beardie, who can’t bother him).
• No loud movies/activities.
• He sleeps as close to the couch as possible. I think he likes watching us.

Location
Western Canada.

Current Problem

• He isn’t eating nearly enough anymore (1-2 crickets every few days).
• He hardly drinks.
• He keeps his eyes closed all the time.
• He’s extremely lethargic when in his cage, and yet if he’s handled he scoots around surprisingly quickly.
• This has been going on for a couple weeks now.

This is Turbo now.


Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated. We’re worried our little dinosaur isn’t going to make it much longer if we can’t figure out a way to keep him properly nourished or get him to look after himself. Thanks for all the reading.

Cheers!

- Rianne and Ben

Welcome to the forum, im sorry your baby isnt doing well.

a few things that might help.

supplementing- you should be using the calcium with d3 twice a month. the calcium without d3 should be used on every feeding, and a multivitamin twice a month.

gutloading- you need to improve this. fresh fruits and veggies are key. find blogs from sandrachameleon about this.

lighting- get rid of that red bulb. you only need two bulbs, a uvb bulb, and a basking bulb (which can be a regular household bulb)

temps- the basking temp should be about 84 max at this age for now.

cage- i would put your chammie in a screen cage. as an adult, he will need a 2ftx2ftx4ft screen cage.

reasons for your current problems-
the red bulb im betting you keep on at night- messes with his sleep schedule.
the basking temp- WAY WAY WAY to hot for a baby this young, especially with him being in a glass cage.
the lethargy is probably being caused by these issues- correct them, and see how he does.

also, to verify gender, take a picture of the back of the back feet, if there is a tiny pimple looking bump, its a boy, no bump, itsa girl.

Welcome to the Chameleon Forums. I am so sorry that your little one is not well. camimom gave you some excellent advise above. I also wanted to give you my blog for new keepers. I raised my veiled babies very successfully this way.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...-keepers-young-veiled-panther-chameleons.html

you say 26 watt uvb...is that a 10.0? That will be too intense for a baby. How do you know your chameleon prefers the 26 watt to the 13 watt?

Thank you to all of you for such a prompt response. I've read through your comments and made a few changes already.

carol5208 said:

you say 26 watt uvb...is that a 10.0? That will be too intense for a baby. How do you know your chameleon prefers the 26 watt to the 13 watt?

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Yes it's a 10.0. We had it in there before, and he was a lot more active. He got sluggish when we swapped to a 5.0. Since I put the 26W back in, he's stopped hiding as much as he was before.

camimom said:

the red bulb im betting you keep on at night- messes with his sleep schedule.

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No night lights for him. The most light he gets at night would be from Steve's (our bearded dragon) tank about 5 feet away, but it's still really dark in our living room even with Steve's light on. He still sleeps pretty much all day anyway. Either way, I've turned his red light off so I'll see how that goes.

camimom said:

cage- i would put your chammie in a screen cage. as an adult, he will need a 2ftx2ftx4ft screen cage.

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We can't afford to upgrade right now. I've kept the cage doors open for about a week to let the heat out so far. However, I was thinking of trying to replace the doors with screen doors, or perhaps cutting a couple 4" vent holes in the sides of the tank and covering them with screen to add some ventilation. Do you think that might help until we can build him a suitable enclosure?

Hi, A few worries and bits of advice.

*May i ask how far your basking spot is from your bulb and how are you measuring this? Are you placing the probe or thermometer on the highest branch directly under the light?
-With panthers i use 40 watt mainly. With distances less that 10 inches with ambient temps ranging from 68-72*. My basking temps range from 87-94* in open screen cages at around 8 inches. I would venture to say your temps are not accurate, especially being that you are in a glass cage with a 60 watt bulb. This dehydrates a young animal extremely fast. It is important to keep them within safe range.

*The bulb is a coil type. Many have success with these bulbs while some of us have not in the past. They are said to be improved and have fixed the issue some us have seen in the past but with my past issues its hard not to advise to change your uvb bulb to a linear tube style. In the past it shut eyes, caused eye infections, scarred the eye and the worst it was probably the demise.

Your chameleon definitely looks like it needs immediate attention. If your animal was mine.
- Id give the little one shower chamber treatments a couple times a day. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/ataraxia/594-shower-chamber-treatment.html
-You really need to place some live plants in with this young one. Live helps in so many ways. A pathos can be bought at just about anywhere for under 10 dollars. It has large leaves to drink from, many vines ot climb, grows well under most lighting.
-Screen cage. Id personally recommend stepping up in cages with size. Usually will take purchasing two cages or you can split a large cage in half for them to hunt efficiently.
-Make sure your feeders are appropriate size. No bigger than the distance between the eyes.
-Fix the temps by changing bulbs.

ataraxia said:

*May i ask how far your basking spot is from your bulb and how are you measuring this? Are you placing the probe or thermometer on the highest branch directly under the light?

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The thermometer is as close as he can get to the basking bulb without managing to climb to the top of the tank. However, we don't have anything to hang his fixtures from, so his dome lights sit on top of the tank. This means he can get within about 4.5" of the bulb. By "measuring", were you referring to measuring the distance, or to what type of thermometer I am using?

ataraxia said:

-With panthers i use 40 watt mainly. With distances less that 10 inches with ambient temps ranging from 68-72*. My basking temps range from 87-94* in open screen cages at around 8 inches. I would venture to say your temps are not accurate, especially being that you are in a glass cage with a 60 watt bulb. This dehydrates a young animal extremely fast. It is important to keep them within safe range.

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The basking bulb is a 60W household light bulb. At its hottest, I've seen the temperature under it get up to 100F, but we've been keeping the enclosure doors open, so it's been a little cooler. I'm not sure why it's so cool in comparison to your enclosures, but that's what the readings are.

I'm sure his feeders are small enough. We custom order week-old crickets, and they're mostly maybe a half-centimeter long if that. He struggled with crickets from the pet store, as most places sell 3-week crickets.

I'll try the plants and the shower routine. But I have a couple questions about the shower treatment:
A.) I was told tap water was bad for chameleons? We have very hard water. Does this matter if he's just drinking it?
B.) He already does get plenty of mistings, both with the automatic mister and a hand-sprayer. Is the shower much difference, if he already has very wet leaves in his tank?
C.) I'm trying to be careful to not stress him out, as he's quick with his stress colours. Even when I handle him, it's usually if I'm reading or doing something else that's quiet. He doesn't even like being handled when there's kitchen noise. Won't the shower freak him out? Is there a good alternative to this?

I really appreciate the help. I'm trying really hard not to over-mother him right now. I'm about *this* close to force-feeding him water/food mush with a push syringe.

Also, in answer to someone's previous suggestion, I tried to check Turbo's gender, but he's so little that it's hard to tell. Plus he gets ticked off and scoots off when I try to look at him. He is particularly adventurous if you want him to stay still.

Only other thing i can think of is maybe your thermometer is not operating correctly. If you have access to another i would try another. I believe you are doing your best and i commend you.

A) We have hard water here also. All of my guys and gales get it. It is fine but not my preference.
B) The shower you are able (if you dont have drainage) to give a misting session for 15 minutes or better. Do you have drainage set up on your cage? How long are you spraying for? How many times a day?
C) Some welcome it and some wont. Just be sure you set up a nice little plant in there for him to feel comfortable on. Alternative: buy a small reptarium for like 30 bucks, put some vines in it and put him in that in the shower. Id say if he is doing ok on you he will be just fine in the shower.

Change back to the 5.0 and lower your basking bulb wattage to 40 and try that. If not put in a 25 watt. 100 degrees is just too hot.

So, for future reference, this is our tank:

This is a link with a proper description. It's the 18x18x24". http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/natural_terrarium_small.php

carol5208 said:

Change back to the 5.0 and lower your basking bulb wattage to 40 and try that. If not put in a 25 watt. 100 degrees is just too hot.

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Yes, ma'am. Already done.

ataraxia said:

Only other thing i can think of is maybe your thermometer is not operating correctly. If you have access to another i would try another.

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They're just little circular $10 thermometers from the pet store. I might swap to digital, though. These ones are hard to read when the light shines on them anyway.

Anyway, I tried showering Turbo today for about 15 minutes. It mostly just made him angry. He turned white with bruised-looking patches under his eyes and on the top of his head until I picked him up, and kept changing this way every time I put him back in the tub. I tried changing the temperature and water pressure, but he really hates being sprayed, even by his mister.

On the plus side, he drank a little bit from my fingers when my hands got wet rescuing him from the tub. It wasn't a lot, but it was something of a victory. I don't know if I'll shower him again, though. He still has a few angry black patches, and he went straight to hiding in my hoodie when I picked him up.


P.S. He's not looking shabby yet, but he rubs his face on me whenever I pick him up when he's wet. Can I hope that some of this behaviour has to do with shedding?

Instead of letting Turbo get the full force of the shower try aiming the jet at the wall and allowing small droplets land around him.

Kate said:

Instead of letting Turbo get the full force of the shower try aiming the jet at the wall and allowing small droplets land around him.

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Oh, no, I wasn't spraying him directly. The shower was aimed at the wall. By "water pressure", I meant I turned the taps down to try to make an even finer mist. It was a lighter mist than the mister in his tank produces. He just hates being misted, regardless of pressure or temperature. I think it just startles him.

Hi,
You've received some good advice from very experienced members.
I would just like to add, that's it could be better if you weren't holding him so often. He is still very young and probably still scared of humans so it puts him under stress.
And don't be afraid to be noisy, they are deaf

I can try to handle him less. It's just that he only seems to eat if he's hand-fed, and recently he's only been drinking if I'm the one watering him. He never runs from me or colours up when I hold him, but I'll try to think of a better way to get him his food anyway.

Also, thank you for confirming the deaf thing. Ben was worried that he might be bothered by the surround sound speakers, even though Turbo likes to sleep by them. Here I was all worried about noise.

P.S. I think my little boy chameleon might actually be a lady. :/

Hiya,
had the same problem, the wee dude wasn't eating much. What I did:
a) keep a dish with mini calci worms all the time so he can come and feed when he wants
b) leave him alone, don't handle, don't stare.. just ignore him. My baby took 2 worms from my hand for the 1st time today (had him for nearly 2 months), usually he wouldn't eat in front of us
c) if everything else fails, mini mealworms save the day, mine will always eat them

I usually drop 5-6 locusts in the enclosure in the morning, then my partner checks later, if they are gone - he will drop some more.
You wee bugger might be shy. My girl would eat anything from anywhere in any quantities, when the little dude likes his privacy.

Hello, welcome to the forum I think you have the worst kind of thermometer possible, an upgrade is definitely required........also, as has been mentioned you are giving far too much d3, you need a plain calcium for everyday use. Probably correcting this and changing to less powerful lights will sort the little fellow out.

They are probably not totally deaf, but it's not certain how much they hear. He might well be drinking when you are not there, chams are often secret drinkers......
Spinach is not great as a regular gutload choice it's quite high in oxilates which inhibit calcium uptake (baby leaves are better though, it can be used sometimes). Here is a great gutloading list - https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html

How much did he eat when you first got him? Have you ever used any other feeders? Fruit flies are often a babies favourites, so if he opens his eyes and still won't eat he will probably be most enthusiastic for those.
Here is the all-round caresheet I recommend to all new people with Veileds - https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/chameleonsinmyhouse/395-veiled-chameleon-care-sheet.html
I hope he feels better soon for you
If you can get a decent picture of the back ankle we will be able to tell you the sex......

DavidBuchan said:

They are probably not totally deaf, but it's not certain how much they hear.

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Maybe he's just a surround sound junkie then.

DavidBuchan said:

How much did he eat when you first got him? Have you ever used any other feeders? Fruit flies are often a babies favourites, so if he opens his eyes and still won't eat he will probably be most enthusiastic for those.

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Previously, he would eat one or two crickets per feeding, three times a day. So typically 4-6 crickets a day. And those were 3-weekers from the pet store, which were probably way too big for him to be eating. The ones we have now are much smaller. Right now he's only eating one or two crickets every three days.

I've tried tiny meal worms and wax worms, but he showed no interest at all in the wax worms, and I think the meal worms were too tough for him to chew comfortably.

We were thinking of starting a fruit fly culture. I'm all for it, but Ben read somewhere that there are health risks with fruit flies, so he's a little suspicious of them. Maybe a few good success stories will persuade him?

DavidBuchan said:

If you can get a decent picture of the back ankle we will be able to tell you the sex......

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I'll try for a picture soon if Turbo will stay still. He's (she's?? lol) had a busy day with the shower and everything, so I think I'll leave him alone for now.

Again, I really appreciate all the advice you guys are giving me. Ben and I have had a bearded dragon for two years and thought we would be OK with a chameleon, and we're obviously in over our heads a little bit.

I have made some changes, and seen a few results:

• Lighting: He's down to just his 5.0 UVB and the 60W household bulb (will get lower wattage once I get a chance to go to the store).
• Temperature: We're down to 80F up top and about 75F at the bottom. I'll grab new thermometers when I go out for light bulbs.
• Hydration: He's been showered. He did not like it, but it happened and will probably happen again tomorrow whether he wants it or not.
• Turbo hasn't opened his eyes for feeding, but he's taken a bit of water, and he's very active and adventurous.

I would like to try Fluker's Repta+Boost. This link provides a list of ingredients and promised nutritional value. http://www.petco.com/product/117291/Flukers-ReptaBoost-Insectavore-And-Carnivore-High-Amp-Boost.aspxOpinions??

Acinonyx said:

We were thinking of starting a fruit fly culture. I'm all for it, but Ben read somewhere that there are health risks with fruit flies, so he's a little suspicious of them. Maybe a few good success stories will persuade him?

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Risks for people or the cham? The only problem I ever had with them was mites. Throw it out, waste of flies and money........that's usually because I kept them for too long and left too much wet fruit in with them.....
It is a rare cham who doesn't love to eat a fly of the right size......
I can't really say about the supplement, I never used it (people don't often say good things about flukers products on here though).
If he's still drinking and his humidity is good I would give him a day or 2 to see if he opens his eyes before force feeding anything yet.

DavidBuchan said:

Risks for people or the cham? The only problem I ever had with them was mites.

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I believe Ben said something about mites. I was under the assumption they could be passed on to the chameleon and cause health issues. Turbo doesn't need any more of those.

Do you know of a good blog on starting fruit fly cultures, or have any advice on the topic? Frankly, Ben and I suck at raising bugs. Our last big batch of crickets mostly escaped into the apartment, and our attempts with meal worms and superworms have ended with cupfuls of dead bugs. I've had nightmares about finding crickets in the bedroom. Lmao. Are fruit flies easier? We're obviously a little bit bug-challenged.

I've always found all the bugs very easy myself (except one nightmare incident when I was about 14.......giant mealworm took up a 3rd of the room... ).
Fruit flies are very simple if you buy an already established tub there's literally nothing you have to do (I always add a bit of fruit), but they are one of the hardest for me to prevent occasional escapees.........especially when messing around separating them to make new home made cultures - https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/mcleodschams/641-fruit-fly-culure-how.html
There's no chance of mites spreading to the cham cage if you keep them on the other side of the room, and throw them out when/if mites appear. Also, they are more often a different kind of mite to one that would usually be a problem for chams anyway.