B. thamnobates? Problem in SA

Looks like we have a problem in SA i'm seeing more and more people selling Dwarf chameleons as veileds to vulnerable people that don't know the difference. One 'pet shop' even gives you a care sheet for a 'veiled' if you buy one. I have confronted them but thy don't want to listen. This is the latest case i have seen, i have a feeling that this guy doesn't know that this is actually Bradypodions and not veileds. To make matters worse the one (the brownish one) looks as if she might be pregnant! Can someone confirm that this is B. thamnobates? It looks like two females?

They do look like Bradypodion (I don't have experience with thamnobates, so someone else will chime in that regard), but aren't they illegal to own in SA to begin with? The last I read all species of Bradypodion were illegal to keep in all South African provinces, with small exceptions for scientific purposes.

Perhaps it's something that is best reported to the proper authorities?

Olimpia said:

They do look like Bradypodion (I don't have experience with thamnobates, so someone else will chime in that regard), but aren't they illegal to own in SA to begin with? The last I read all species of Bradypodion were illegal to keep in all South African provinces, with small exceptions for scientific purposes.

Perhaps it's something that is best reported to the proper authorities?

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Yes it is illegal to own any Bradypodion in SA or any other indigenous chameleon as far i know my flap necks included! I've only kept them because they were rescues.

They look much too big to be thamnobates IMO

Could be B. melanocephalum

Being illegal may be reason for the mislabel. I have seen it many times before, here in VA, NC, and MD. They play stupid if they get caught. (i.e. pirranha vs silver dollars or pacu. Outer Banks Kingsnake vs eastern kingsnake) Actually, more common than you think.

But why would you mislabel a thamno as a veiled. Thamnobates are much more expensive and rare.

Djturna4thakidz said:

But why would you mislabel a thamno as a veiled. Thamnobates are much more expensive and rare.

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They are indigenous to South Africa, people go catch them in the wild and then sell them as veileds. They can't sell them as bradypodion because it is illegal to own them without permits. They trick people into thinking they are veileds.

In what states do you need a permit? I have owned several in my days

FSchams said:

They are indigenous to South Africa, people go catch them in the wild and then sell them as veileds. They can't sell them as bradypodion because it is illegal to own them without permits. They trick people into thinking they are veileds.

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That is a problem. In regards that if people/chameleon keepers start releasing Bradypodions (marked as Veiled Chameleons) in area's that they are not native too in South Africa. Theoretically wildlife officials could have non natural populations of Bradypodions in places where they do not belong in South Africa.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Do you happen to have additional photos of the animals? Hard to tell for sure from the photos but they appear to be Bradypodion transvaalense. They definitely are not B. melanocephalum, and B. thamnobates can get quite large. Also, what part of South Africa is this shop (could be indicative of what species it is)?

Chris

The shop that sold them is in the Gauteng province so is the owner of the 2 I posted pictures of. So it makes sense that they could be B. transvaalense, they don't look like any other transvaalense i have seen though.

Here is a photo i got from the pet shop.

That last pictute looks like thamnobates. I haven't seen them in pet shops yet only veileds. First two look like traansvaalensis and she does look gravid. Where did you see them?

Rodcham said:

That last pictute looks like thamnobates. I haven't seen them in pet shops yet only veileds. First two look like traansvaalensis and she does look gravid. Where did you see them?

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The guy posted them on facebook when he thought they were veileds. He is gonna get a huge surprise when she starts to deliver her babies. The pet shop advertised them on one of the classified sites, junkmail i think.

I have not seen bradypodion actually for sale in any shops but I have seen them being kept at stores before, both transvaalense and pumilum.

Unfortunately there isn't much we can do. I've tried adding my efforts into making a change even getting very far with Nat. Con. but only to have them stop replying after a while.
People have moved these dwarf chameleons all over the place and there are some populations that have become established in Johannesburg - quite a while ago.

Those look to be B. thamnobates, but they are by far the largest I have ever seen! I had no idea they got that big. Its a shame they are being listed and sold as veileds! What a shame. Is there anyway you can report whoever you know is selling them in SA to the wildlife authorities?

I also know of cerain areas with established colonies of Brady's here in jhb. Nat Con doesn't seem to interested in sorting it out. There is only one person I know of that works with Nat Con in KZN and has permits and a breeding them. He now has an export permit as well.